God and Devil - Page 5

wolf · 03-02-2005, 12:40 PM

Everyone has a godform ... science, logic, reason, God, Cernnunos, Hecate, Shekinah, Allah, Buddha, the Infinite ...

Happy Monkey · 03-02-2005, 12:55 PM

You have to make the definition of "godform" pretty vague to include all of that...

lookout123 · 03-02-2005, 12:57 PM

if god is something that we worship, then wolf is right. we all worship something, even if it is subconsciously.
self, money, fame, little green men from outer space.

Troubleshooter · 03-02-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

You have to make the definition of "godform" pretty vague to include all of that...

What? The concept of deity isn't vague enough for you already?

Happy Monkey · 03-02-2005, 01:15 PM

I don't worship anything, even subconsciously. Unless you also make the definition of "worship" pretty vague too.

Troubleshooter · 03-02-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

one thing i notice *zips up flame retardent suit* those who are sure religion is for the birds are generally more insulting in explaining their logic than those who believe in God.

I'm willing to bet that some of that comes from some of the (a/non)theists believing in a greater validity to an ideology that has a more modern or philosophical outlook.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

to me it seems that Mrnoodle should be more emotionally entangled in his defense - he has his eternal soul on the block, after all. you and TS have absolutely nothing at risk if you are right, so why do you care so much if someone believes otherwise?

I'm going to have to disagree on this.

1) What if both noodle and myself are wrong?
2) for myself, I feel I have more at risk because I personally have built my belief structure from many sources and am in an ongoing campain to clarify and correct any innaccuracies or mistakes. I'd say that I have more invested in my beliefs because I've done most of the work as opposed to picking up a prefab paradigm.

Clodfobble · 03-02-2005, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I don't worship anything, even subconsciously.

Not even facts?

mrnoodle · 03-02-2005, 02:10 PM

Because you have built your belief structure from many sources doesn't make it any more original. And again the atheist arrogance (however unintentional) - what makes you think that I have done any less thinking or soul searching along my path than you have done on yours?

Your effort to clarify and correct any inaccuracies you perceive in your sources is doomed to fail - not because you're not equally capable as any other human being, but because you are equally fallible. And it's what separates my God from yours - I believe in an infallible God, so my goal is to align myself with one ultimate truth, not be blown around like a leaf in whatever wind happens by. Custom-building "truth" from whatever sources jibe with your current desires and whims is the downfall of atheism, and frankly, most major Christian denominations.

Happy Monkey · 03-02-2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Not even facts?

Like I said, you'd have to smudge the definition of "worship" beyond my understanding of the word in order to apply it to my relationship with facts. I respect facts, and find them useful. Is that worship?

Happy Monkey · 03-02-2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Custom-building "truth" from whatever sources jibe with your current desires and whims is the downfall of atheism, and frankly, most major Christian denominations.

Which one(s) don't do it?

mrnoodle · 03-02-2005, 02:40 PM

Good point. All manmade religious denominations do it to some extent. But religion is man's corporate attempt to define and worship God corporately. On an individual level, our relationship with God is free of religion - we just gather with people who believe similarly, so we can help each other in our faith. It's only when we start deciding to form committees and act in the interest of "the church" and not in God's interest that we fail. And the failures are spectacular, and lots of people get hurt, because we suck at being God.

Thousands if not millions of Catholics are waiting with bated breath to see if the pope is going to live or die. If he dies, they think God won't have a mouthpiece and we'll be without spiritual direction until the next one is appointed. It's the pinnacle of wrong thinking as far as Christianity is concerned - God acts on a personal level, not through some guy in Rome. Who set that up, anyway? T'weren't God.

OnyxCougar · 03-02-2005, 04:05 PM

At the risk of offending sensitive Catholics, I don't consider them to be "followers of Jesus" or God. They do ALOT of stuff that God expressly prohibits, like worshiping idols and other people (Mary and Saints). The only person who is supposed to intercede for you is Jesus. Catholics also have a different set of commandments than everyone else. And the whole Pope thing. What is that about?

Trilby · 03-02-2005, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

At the risk of offending sensitive Catholics, I don't consider them to be "followers of Jesus" or God. They do ALOT of stuff that God expressly prohibits, like worshiping idols and other people (Mary and Saints). The only person who is supposed to intercede for you is Jesus. Catholics also have a different set of commandments than everyone else. And the whole Pope thing. What is that about?

Well, now i'm offended.

Of course, Catholics don't have the patent on doing stuff god expressly prohibits. Everybody does that.

And, i'm not catholic, but was raised catholic and my mom is a devout catholic. If you think they are wrong, what do you have to say about the Jews? Too bad salvation is denied so many, right?

mrnoodle · 03-02-2005, 04:45 PM

who is salvation denied to? no one.

who doesn't ask for it? lots of people.

OnyxCougar · 03-02-2005, 04:53 PM

Jews are a whole nother story.

I'm currently researching this very subject. If the scholars, historians and other learned people are correct, and Jesus really did exist, and the Jews missed it. There are, however, a growing number of Messianic Jews, Jews who believe in the orthodoxy of Judaism and also that Jesus was the Messiah that the prophecies foretold.

03-02-2005, 12:40 PM	#61
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Everyone has a godform ... science, logic, reason, God, Cernnunos, Hecate, Shekinah, Allah, Buddha, the Infinite ... __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

03-02-2005, 12:55 PM	#62
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	You have to make the definition of "godform" pretty vague to include all of that... __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

03-02-2005, 12:57 PM	#63
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	if god is something that we worship, then wolf is right. we all worship something, even if it is subconsciously. self, money, fame, little green men from outer space. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

03-02-2005, 01:15 PM	#65
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	I don't worship anything, even subconsciously. Unless you also make the definition of "worship" pretty vague too. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

03-02-2005, 02:10 PM	#68
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	Because you have built your belief structure from many sources doesn't make it any more original. And again the atheist arrogance (however unintentional) - what makes you think that I have done any less thinking or soul searching along my path than you have done on yours? Your effort to clarify and correct any inaccuracies you perceive in your sources is doomed to fail - not because you're not equally capable as any other human being, but because you are equally fallible. And it's what separates my God from yours - I believe in an infallible God, so my goal is to align myself with one ultimate truth, not be blown around like a leaf in whatever wind happens by. Custom-building "truth" from whatever sources jibe with your current desires and whims is the downfall of atheism, and frankly, most major Christian denominations. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

03-02-2005, 02:40 PM	#71
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	Good point. All manmade religious denominations do it to some extent. But religion is man's corporate attempt to define and worship God corporately. On an individual level, our relationship with God is free of religion - we just gather with people who believe similarly, so we can help each other in our faith. It's only when we start deciding to form committees and act in the interest of "the church" and not in God's interest that we fail. And the failures are spectacular, and lots of people get hurt, because we suck at being God. Thousands if not millions of Catholics are waiting with bated breath to see if the pope is going to live or die. If he dies, they think God won't have a mouthpiece and we'll be without spiritual direction until the next one is appointed. It's the pinnacle of wrong thinking as far as Christianity is concerned - God acts on a personal level, not through some guy in Rome. Who set that up, anyway? T'weren't God. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

03-02-2005, 04:05 PM	#72
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	At the risk of offending sensitive Catholics, I don't consider them to be "followers of Jesus" or God. They do ALOT of stuff that God expressly prohibits, like worshiping idols and other people (Mary and Saints). The only person who is supposed to intercede for you is Jesus. Catholics also have a different set of commandments than everyone else. And the whole Pope thing. What is that about? __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

03-02-2005, 04:45 PM	#74
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	who is salvation denied to? no one. who doesn't ask for it? lots of people. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

03-02-2005, 04:53 PM	#75
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	Jews are a whole nother story. I'm currently researching this very subject. If the scholars, historians and other learned people are correct, and Jesus really did exist, and the Jews missed it. There are, however, a growing number of Messianic Jews, Jews who believe in the orthodoxy of Judaism and also that Jesus was the Messiah that the prophecies foretold. __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

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