6/24/2002: Another Palestinian child - Page 2

jaxomlotus · 06-24-2002, 07:08 PM

I'm a liberal American who has spent time in Israel and Palestine. I saw life on both sides first hand. I have both Arab and Israeli friends. My posts are based on my experience - not media bias.

And as for the idiotic "Israel hasn't nuked b/c there are settlements" statement, not quite. They don't need to use an actual nuclear weapon to destroy all of Palestine. They can drop a single missile on Ramallah and kill everyone without harming a single Jewish settlement.

So it's not that they are afraid for the settlements. It's that they have respect for innocent life.

Don't start that "humiliating checkpoint" garbage either. If you had terrorists attending your school you'd install metal detectors and armed guards at the entrances too.

Nic Name · 06-24-2002, 07:11 PM

As I mentioned in another thread ... David Grossman writes this insightful piece:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Six months ago the journal Nature published a study about a dangerous mechanism in the human visual system. The study sought to explain why the brain sometimes refuses to see what the eyes convey to it. The scientists, from Israel's Weizmann Institute, suggested that the explanation for this phenomenon is that the brain is flooded with a multitude of interpretations of every reality it faces and that it must, in the end, decide in favour of one of them and act accordingly. The fascinating part of this explanation is the hypothesis that, from the moment the brain decides in favour of a given interpretation of the images it is receiving, all stimuli that support any other interpretation simply "disappear". The brain, as it were, refuses to relate to them.

In the impossible relationship between Israel and the Palestinians, both sides have for years suffered from almost complete blindness to reality's complexity. Each is certain that the other side is ceaselessly deceiving it; that the other side does not want peace at all; that any compromise move by the other side is camouflage for an intrigue designed to bring the other side's victory and the elimination of its own existence.

There's no need for scientific research to understand how easy it is to paint reality this way.

elSicomoro · 06-24-2002, 07:34 PM

Nic, I must have missed that originally. Do you have a link to the article or to a story about it? It sounds very interesting.

Nic Name · 06-24-2002, 07:37 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...620762,00.html

where Grossman also writes:

Quote:

This morning, in the face of the events coming one on the heels of another, there is no escaping this conclusion: the Israeli brain and the Palestinian brain, which have never known a day of real peace, have been conditioned to perceive one unambiguous picture of reality: that of the unending war, of the one-dimensional, stereotypical, mono-lithically hating, violent enemy.

elSicomoro · 06-24-2002, 07:50 PM

Very good read...thanks.

Nic Name · 06-24-2002, 07:55 PM

This little flash history is an interesting backgrounder to this discussion: http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,720353,00.html

as is this weblog on the conflict: http://www.guardian.co.uk/weblog/spe...533512,00.html

elSicomoro · 06-24-2002, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
Hmmm, Syc, I'm not sure. The source I had said that a million Jews moved away from Arabic countries and I *think* they were suggesting that the bulk of this happened soon after statehood.

First off, please understand that I wasn't being sarcastic. I was curious as to the "criteria" for a refugee, given that those who fled to Israel after the Holocaust might be considered refugees.

According to The Department for Jewish Zionist Education, they say there were about 600,000 Jews that fled to Israel from Arab countries, and about 720,000 Arabs fled. Here are some maps, including those that show the migrations.

The numbers ARE fairly close, although to put it in perspective, the extra 120,000 Arabs are like a city the size of Allentown.

Your point on nationalism is well-taken though. Some Palestinians have been living in refugee camps for over 50 years now. If Palestinians are Arabs, I don't understand why the Arab countries in which many of them are housed don't seem willing to accept them as part of their own countries. I can only suspect that much of it has to do with a) nationalism of the other Arab countries and/or the Palestinians, or b) a good point of grievance the Arabs can make against Israel.

Here's a CBC article regarding Palestinian refugees from April.

06-24-2002, 08:36 PM

I am neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestinian. I am pro-let's stop killing the fucking civilians and find some peace so I don't have to read about dead 3 year olds on MSNBC. And the first step... the very first step... is cutting out the suicide attacks. Who's directly responsible for those? Palestinian extremists. So the ball is in their court, and they refuse to move.

Well, who could make them move then? A true leader of the Palestinian people. One whom would crack down on militants, make it known that hatred toward the others would not be tolerated, and lead peaceful protests to the occupation.

Arafat is none of that. He hates Israel as much as the extremists do. He just has to be diplomatic about it.

So the public needs to force change. They need to install a government that will suit them in their quest for an end to the occupation.

In the mean time, Israel has to continue to defend its citizens by eliminating threats when they appear. It is a shitty reality, but it is the reality.

The ball is in the Palestinians' court. They need to make the move.

Nic Name · 06-24-2002, 08:44 PM

And the Israeli viewpoint is that it's their ball, their court and they make the rules. Now if the Palestinians would just start playing by Israel's rules everything would be kosher.

froody · 06-24-2002, 08:53 PM

Perhaps I'm being naive, but it seems to me like what Israel should do is just prevent any Palestinians from getting to where Israelis live. It's always some Palestinian going into some Israeli neighborhood and blowing themselves up. Why not change to checkpoints to prevent anybody who doesn't have a beard and is wearing a black hat from coming through? I doubt that would take any more resources than they're already committing, and it would require a lot more effort on the suicide bomber's part to get to a target. (The settlements are a problem in this scheme, but they too can be isolated.)

sleemanj · 06-24-2002, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by froody
Why not change to checkpoints to prevent anybody who doesn't have a beard and is wearing a black hat from coming through?

I hear that african americans commit a lot of murders as compared to white middle class people, perhaps in the USA neighborhoods should be divided into white and black with checkpoints....

elSicomoro · 06-24-2002, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sleemanj
I hear that african americans commit a lot of murders as compared to white middle class people, perhaps in the USA neighborhoods should be divided into white and black with checkpoints....

Yeah, that's why we keep them relegated mainly to run-down areas...except for those "good niggers."

06-25-2002, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore

Yeah, that's why we keep them relegated mainly to run-down areas...except for those "good niggers."

You mean the ones that only steal bikes and shit?

Nic - eh, sorta. See, back in 1993, Oslo, that sort of thing, everyone agreed that Arafat would word hard to curb violence, stop the really heated anti-Israel protests, etc... well, Arafat isn't doing that. At all. So Israel is enforcing.

Like I said, if Arafat would do his job, Israel wouldn't need to.

Ball's in his court.

jaguar · 06-25-2002, 02:11 AM

Dhamsaic: congratulations for the most shallow analysis or a series of facts i've seen in a long time.

Ill say only one thing, its hard to move wood when i chop off your arms.

Talking of dead kids, 4 of the 5 victims of the currant occupation of the west bank so far have ben under 10.

elSicomoro · 06-25-2002, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic
You mean the ones that only steal bikes and shit?

No, not them...we ship them straight to North Philadelphia (or in your area, SE DC). You have to have a "Good Nigger Card." Rho carries hers in her purse.

06-24-2002, 07:08 PM	#16
jaxomlotus Questionist Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 8	not quite I'm a liberal American who has spent time in Israel and Palestine. I saw life on both sides first hand. I have both Arab and Israeli friends. My posts are based on my experience - not media bias. And as for the idiotic "Israel hasn't nuked b/c there are settlements" statement, not quite. They don't need to use an actual nuclear weapon to destroy all of Palestine. They can drop a single missile on Ramallah and kill everyone without harming a single Jewish settlement. So it's not that they are afraid for the settlements. It's that they have respect for innocent life. Don't start that "humiliating checkpoint" garbage either. If you had terrorists attending your school you'd install metal detectors and armed guards at the entrances too.

06-24-2002, 07:55 PM	#21
Nic Name retired Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,930	This little flash history is an interesting backgrounder to this discussion: http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,720353,00.html as is this weblog on the conflict: http://www.guardian.co.uk/weblog/spe...533512,00.html Last edited by Nic Name; 06-24-2002 at 08:11 PM.

06-24-2002, 08:44 PM	#24
Nic Name retired Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,930	And the Israeli viewpoint is that it's their ball, their court and they make the rules. Now if the Palestinians would just start playing by Israel's rules everything would be kosher. Last edited by Nic Name; 06-24-2002 at 09:02 PM.

06-25-2002, 02:11 AM	#29
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Dhamsaic: congratulations for the most shallow analysis or a series of facts i've seen in a long time. Ill say only one thing, its hard to move wood when i chop off your arms. Talking of dead kids, 4 of the 5 victims of the currant occupation of the west bank so far have ben under 10. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

06-24-2002, 07:11 PM	#17
Nic Name retired Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,930	As I mentioned in another thread ... David Grossman writes this insightful piece: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Six months ago the journal Nature published a study about a dangerous mechanism in the human visual system. The study sought to explain why the brain sometimes refuses to see what the eyes convey to it. The scientists, from Israel's Weizmann Institute, suggested that the explanation for this phenomenon is that the brain is flooded with a multitude of interpretations of every reality it faces and that it must, in the end, decide in favour of one of them and act accordingly. The fascinating part of this explanation is the hypothesis that, from the moment the brain decides in favour of a given interpretation of the images it is receiving, all stimuli that support any other interpretation simply "disappear". The brain, as it were, refuses to relate to them. In the impossible relationship between Israel and the Palestinians, both sides have for years suffered from almost complete blindness to reality's complexity. Each is certain that the other side is ceaselessly deceiving it; that the other side does not want peace at all; that any compromise move by the other side is camouflage for an intrigue designed to bring the other side's victory and the elimination of its own existence. There's no need for scientific research to understand how easy it is to paint reality this way.

06-24-2002, 07:34 PM	#18
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Nic, I must have missed that originally. Do you have a link to the article or to a story about it? It sounds very interesting.

06-24-2002, 07:50 PM	#20
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Very good read...thanks.

06-24-2002, 08:36 PM	#23
dave Guest Posts: n/a	I am neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestinian. I am pro-let's stop killing the fucking civilians and find some peace so I don't have to read about dead 3 year olds on MSNBC. And the first step... the very first step... is cutting out the suicide attacks. Who's directly responsible for those? Palestinian extremists. So the ball is in their court, and they refuse to move. Well, who could make them move then? A true leader of the Palestinian people. One whom would crack down on militants, make it known that hatred toward the others would not be tolerated, and lead peaceful protests to the occupation. Arafat is none of that. He hates Israel as much as the extremists do. He just has to be diplomatic about it. So the public needs to force change. They need to install a government that will suit them in their quest for an end to the occupation. In the mean time, Israel has to continue to defend its citizens by eliminating threats when they appear. It is a shitty reality, but it is the reality. The ball is in the Palestinians' court. They need to make the move.

06-24-2002, 08:53 PM	#25
froody Alphabetarian Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 12	Perhaps I'm being naive, but it seems to me like what Israel should do is just prevent any Palestinians from getting to where Israelis live. It's always some Palestinian going into some Israeli neighborhood and blowing themselves up. Why not change to checkpoints to prevent anybody who doesn't have a beard and is wearing a black hat from coming through? I doubt that would take any more resources than they're already committing, and it would require a lot more effort on the suicide bomber's part to get to a target. (The settlements are a problem in this scheme, but they too can be isolated.)

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