Immigration

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by sycamore

Under the U.S. government's "wet-foot, dry-foot" policy, Cubans who reach dry land in the United States are usually allowed to remain in the country, while those caught at sea are sent back.

So we're back to considering Cubans to be "political refugees"...once they cross the line. Mexicans aren't, nor are other illegals.

Originally Posted by sycamore

Most of the illegals here are apparently not here for criminal activity. Are you equating illegal immigration with burglary?

No, but I'm trying to remind the people who want to sweep it under the rug that illegals are *ILLEGAL*. Not just "most of them"...*all* of them, by definition. They've already demonstrated that they don't care about our laws if they become inconveniant, and the fact they they're successful at their crime shouldn't get them a pass.

Why make a joke of our laws? If you're willing to ignore them, give up. Repeal immigration law, open the borders, let everybody in, but prepare to live to a standard of living more like Mexico's...there's only so many jobs delivering pizza and flipping burgers.

I"m not arguing for mass deportation; that's hideously expensive and completely ineffective. I'm in favor of punishing employers who break the law.

When the kitchen's full of flies, you don't play "catch and release" with them, you'll never be done. You patch the holes in the screen, sure. But most importantly you cover the food.

[skysidhe]

I think we should all save our retirement money. Go south and buy some premium mexican property. Live high on our american dollar there. Soak up the mexican sun and if we get terminal cancer in our old age we can just snort up or toke up some of that leagalized drug. Life will be grand.


*dreamming*

[skysidhe]

What I am saying is, We can take over thier country and make it work. See I live in a simplistic world. * taps forehead*





Sorry that's as deep as I can muster a thought.

[billybob]

All those who are howling about the 'illegals' should perhaps have pushed harder on the issue before it became an entrenched phenomenon. If a few more American - born citizens were willing to be treated like shit and paid peanuts, there would not be a labour market that attracted them in the first place. Some of these 'illegals' have been living and working in the US for 20 years or more. Rather than whining about how awful they are, why not kick up a stink about the poor performance of agencies that have let them become embedded into the American economy?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by billybob

All those who are howling about the 'illegals' should perhaps have pushed harder on the issue before it became an entrenched phenomenon.

So, it's too late...just give up, let it get worse and then bitch about "the government"...because "it's an entrenched phenomenon". We are "the government". It's only "entrenched" because we've left it in the trench. People profiting from exploiting illegal labor get off with a slap on the wrist that they write off as a cost of doing business, and get a wink and a nod from those who say "it's too late, it's entrenched".

It's not "too late", cut off the financial incentives to break the law and watch behavior change.

Are you actually a Kiwi, billybob?

The immigration regulations of New Zealand are strictly controlled and enforced. The New Zealand Government policy permits the granting of permanent residence up to 45,000 persons per year under a range of visa classes, allowing both permanent and temporary residence. However it is estimated that up to twice this number apply for immigration to New Zealand every year. There are a variety of compulsory requirements that each applicant must meet in order to achieve residence in New Zealand which are constantly changing to meet the social and economic needs of the country...

A little bit easier to enforce on islands, to be sure...

[billybob]

Would be nice to think it's that simple. Straight question time.Would you work for what they get, and if not, how much extra are you willing to spend a week on goods and services exclusively from legal sources...?

[MaggieL]

Let's make all the sources legal and we'll see what these things really cost. I bet it's not as much more as you're trying to scare me with. Most of the difference is going into the pockets of the exploiters anyway. We also won't send a significant fraction of that money out of the country, as we do when it's paid to illegal aliens. Every bodega in Norristown has big signs in the window about their cash exporting services.

Again...you're really a New Zealander? Or is your profile false?

[mrnoodle]

CNN article about the terrible woes illegals must face during their trip north.


So. We are supposed to send manpower and resources down there to rescue these idiots from the folly of their decision to walk across 120 degree deserts so they can "buy nice things". However, using the manpower and resources to deport them and seal the border is racist. I think I've got it now.

[billybob]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Let's make all the sources legal and we'll see what these things really cost. I bet it's not as much more as you're trying to scare me with. Most of the difference is going into the pockets of the exploiters anyway. We also won't send a significant fraction of that money out of the country, as we do when it's paid to illegal aliens. Every bodega in Norristown has big signs in the window about their cash exporting services.

Again...you're really a New Zealander? Or is your profile false?

I'll answer your question even though you decided to ignore mine....

I am a british born New Zealander. I arrived here legally twenty years ago.Why would I want to create a false profile?Weird.

Incidentally, Where's your 'quote' from?

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by billybob

Straight question time.Would you work for what they get, and if not, how much extra are you willing to spend a week on goods and services exclusively from legal sources...?

I'd rather ask: would you be willing to not only spend the money to get all your goods and services from legal sources, but are you also willing to cough up the taxpayer money to lock the borders down, patrol those borders, and pay for the law enforcement services to round up and deport all of the current illegals?

I agree change is needed, I'm just not sure that it is as cut and dry as many suggest. "Let's deport, lockdown the borders and start clamping down on businesses to see where it goes" is, I fear, much more expensive than many people are suggesting in terms of economy and taxes. It sure isn't going well so far.

[MaggieL]

Let's start with the easy part...enforcing the law against exploiters; they way it's done now is a joke. Tieing that to the expense of the fantasy of completely impermeable borders is a straw man. That the borders can't be completely sealed against a highly motivated infiltrator is no reason not to attack their motivation.

As I said: remove the incentives. The illegals managed to get here because there were jobs, if there are no jobs I'm sure they can find their way back. There's no point in deporting them now because they'll be back tomorrow, it's too profitable for them not to.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

The illegals managed to get here because there were jobs, if there are no jobs I'm sure they can find their way back.

Well, any ideas on how this could be enforced? Wal-Mart has already been slapped for hiring illegals, but is there an effective way to hit drywall hangers, ditch diggers, and tomato pickers? I had to provide proof of citizenship before being employed, but it seems to be optional for a lot of jobs and it doesn't seem to be enforced one bit.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

..it seems to be optional for a lot of jobs and it doesn't seem to be enforced one bit.

It's not optional at all. The enforcement has been vitiated by several factors, including a contradictory law preventing employers from demanding INS documentation from foreign-born employees because it's "discriminatory" (and because of scary visions touted by liberals of squads body-armored INS stormtroopers with tactical carbines descending on sweatshops).

There's also widespread opposition to a true national identity document system, for reasons that make no sense to me. I have a driver's licence, a pilot's licence, two firearms licences, and amateur radio station licence and a US passport, which I presented the last couple times I needed to do an I-9. What freedom I am gaining because there's no national ID card system escapes me somehow. The government knows who I am and where I live, if they care, which apparently they don't, much

I missed an opportunity to do contract work in Switzerland last year because I wasn't an EU citizen (yes, I know Switzerland isn't in the EU, go figure). Somehow I resisted the temptation to scream "Racism!" then.

Interestingly enough, the fellow organizing that contractor group would have been OK with the Swiss; he's Mexican-born but claims dual citizenship as a Spaniard though his maternal grandfather. Today he works for Wal-mart (the .com part) as a legal US resident.

[Shocker]

Originally Posted by sycamore

I tend to look at crime from several standpoints, among them severity and circumstance. Illegal immigration is a mild concern to me...it's nothing compared to violent crime or securities issues.

Actually I would tend to think that letting people cross our borders unchecked, not knowing what their intentions are or what their purpose for being her is, would qualify as a security issue. So it should not be just a mild concern for you.

I'm in no way trying to say that every person who is here illegally are bad people. I understand that many work for next to nothing, doing jobs that even I wouldn't want to do. I know that many just want to work and be left alone. So understand that before anyone tries to make it seem like I am anti-immigrant, because I am not.

All you need to do to understand this is just break it down to its simplest, factual components. Take out the emotional arguments about how you think they deserve equal treatment as legal citizens because they are people too, that they just want to work or whatever. Just know that:

1) The law very explicitly lays out a process which one must follow in order to immigrate and become a U.S. citizen.
2) Forget that idea that, "Oh, well this law isn't as serious as laws against violent crimes and crimes against property." The law is the law, and it must be enforced equally and absolutely. Understandably, the complexity and cost of doing this completely is beyond our capabilities, but it must be done to the full extent possible under the law.
3) If you are not happy with the law as it currently is, understand that there is indeed a process in which laws may be changed. Until which time the law is changed, it should be enforced as is. Remember the civil rights era? Black leaders during that time believed that it was counterproductive to break the law to attain their goals, so instead, they used existing laws to bring about change. In principal, this is no different with immigration.
4) For those of you who think that everyone, no matter who they are, where they are from, or how they got here, that they get the same treatment afforded to a U.S. citizen, or that it is the duty of the U.S. to welcome them here, know that the U.S. Constitution is our supreme law, affording protections and powers and responsibilities of the government, and that above all else, the Constitution must be followed. I quote, from the Constitution:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

This was written for citizens of the United States, and it governs citizens of the United States and protects first and foremost, citizens of the United States, and it is the duty of the government to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity", not citizens of other countries. If they want the same benefits as a U.S. citizen, all they have to do is follow the law to come here legally.

The facts are simple and straightforward. To argue the facts is just ignorance. Now even though the facts are simple, the solution is not. Emotions get involved, rhetoric gets thrown around, and people just become confused. Also the problem with illegal immigrants isn't just at the border, but people overstaying their visas. These things make it even more complicated to find a suitable solution, which is why we must remain vigilant and continue to enforce our laws while reforming the system to make it work better.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

It's not optional at all.

It seems to be pretty optional to me on a lot of the jobs illegals are picked up for. I never see them checking for ID when the contractors go scouting the Wal-Mart parking lots for day labor.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

There's also widespread opposition to a true national identity document system, for reasons that make no sense to me. I have a driver's licence, a pilot's licence, two firearms licences, and amateur radio station licence and a US passport, which I presented the last couple times I needed to do an I-9.

You used your ham ticket on an I-9? That seems a bit strange to me.

Here's my main reason for being against a National ID: it isn't needed. You carry a pilot's license for proof that you have the ability to fly a plane, you carry a CCW to show proof that you have the ability to handle a firearm, and you have a driver's license to show that you have proven your ability to safely drive a vehicle (but, hey, even the gov't doesn't agree with me on that). No ID card is needed, ever, to show that you are a US citizen unless you plan on taking a trip overseas -- and that'd be your passport. They want proof I'm a citizen? I have a birth certificate. Other than that, the federal government doesn't need to be expanded any more or have any more information about me, or anyone else, than it needs to. I know of no reason that proof of citizenship would ever have to be carried in my wallet. If you don't understand the problems associated with a national ID card, do a search in Google for "Britain national ID card debate" and read about how the basic idea to keep a NID from being counterfitted has stretched into biometrics databases and all manner of privacy issues. The ways the UK plans to use those databases on their own citizens is downright scary.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

What freedom I am gaining because there's no national ID card system escapes me somehow.

That's because you have yet to lose it.

Hey, you proposed a mandatory national ID card rather than simply passing laws on something that is already illegal. That, at least, provides some method of enforcement in this mess. I suppose if my DL had a little US flag printed on it and I had to show it to a hiring party before I got a job, I guess I wouldn't have much of an issue. But will that place any pressure on illegal field workers, day larbor, contractors, or house maids?