So, what is the difference.... - Page 5

Trilby · 07-22-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

But they did that in response to this which israel did in response to that... etc etc etc

That's funny--I thought that Israel was showing some major concessions to the aggrieved parties in that area. Guess not.

Its a shame that the US wasn't in exsistence when it all began...they could lay this one on us, too.

MaggieL · 07-23-2006, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

Realistically, onyl the US can reign in Isreal.

Here's where we see how important spelling can be.

The US won't reign in Israel.

It might rein-in Israel.

Words matter...in this case a homophone deeply changes the meaning of a sentence.

MaggieL · 07-23-2006, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

Its a shame that the US wasn't in exsistence when it all began...they could lay this one on us, too.

Why would that stop anyone?

MaggieL · 07-23-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

No-one can do the victims any good, maggie, 'cos they're dead.

That's moronic. Not all the victims are dead.

Beyond those injured nonfatally or economically or by having their property destroyed or loved ones killed, there are other future victims who can yet be helped by preventing the status quo ante from continuing.

That is an opportunity that was lost once before...had it not been, even the now-dead fatalities of the current fighting might have been saved. Now you're working hard against the interests of the next set

JayMcGee · 07-23-2006, 06:21 PM

stop with the spelling-flames and haire-splitting, maggie. You know full-well my meaning. The US can exercise enormous influence over Israel, and has done so in the past. The fact that it chooses not to do so now is saddening and demeans your great country. Yes, I know it's an Israeli matter, and that Hezbollah are no angels, but that does not justify the slaughter of innocents nor the desrtruction of the infrastructer of a sovereign (and I would point out, a West-friendly) state. The obligation is upon all of us to help stop the violence....... that the state with the most influence is shirking its obligations bodes ill for ultimate peace in that region.....

Undertoad · 07-23-2006, 07:29 PM

That assumes that the best way to end the current violence is through enforced cease-fire. I don't think you've been listening to what Iran/Hisballah has been saying. They have no reason to cease fire. They believe they will win. They also believe that negotiation is weakness.

Israel pulled back to the '67 borders in two places: Gaza and Lebanon. They have now been attacked on specifically those two borders. Why?

You claim to like peace but you want the terrorists to maintain control of the country they have hijacked, with the 10,000 missiles they have built up and the money of oil-rich Islamist fundamentalist dictators with nukes. I don't think this "peace" you have in mind is going to work out. Sure engagement hasn't solved many problems, but disengagement has to be on both sides bucky, especially in this nukular age where the worst case is unthinkable.

9th Engineer · 07-23-2006, 07:37 PM

Tell me Jay, how much influence do you think we'll have after they've stopped fighting and it's still raining rocket in Israel? They would have to be psycho not to fire back when attacked.

JayMcGee · 07-23-2006, 08:02 PM

@UT.....

first. drop the 'bucky' bit..... that alone is enough to set your post as antaganostic and agressive rather than debative.... as moderator/owner, you shoulld know better...

To your other points.....

The possiblilty of a voluntary cease fire is somewhat low, so an enforced one seems the best way to stop the killing of innocents on both sides.... and the US is about the only state that can enforce a cease-fire. That it won't do so is what gives me cause to castigate it. The Lebbonese govt/Hizbollah relationship is analogous to the Eire/IRA realtionship (cheap jibe number one: except that Hizbollah didn't get funded from collection tins in New York bars): the major differnce in policy is that the UK (Israel) did not bomb the crap out of Dublin (Beiruit). At that time, the IRA did not believe in a negotiated settlement. but long years of patience and diplomacy finally prevailled.

And, of course, Hizbollah have no more hi-jacked Lebbenon than the IRA hi-jacked Eire.... And at this point, I would like to point out that the Lebbonese Govt is one of the few pro-Western govts in the region.... we should be doing all we can to support it rather than turing a blind eye to its destruction at the hands of the IDF.

Oh, and yeah, the nuclear thing does worry me...... I see no fail-safe for Israel's nuclear force.

JayMcGee · 07-23-2006, 08:05 PM

@nineth....

what happened to your much-vaunted patriots? Like the guns of Singapore, are they all pointed the wrong way?

Griff · 07-23-2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

Realistically, onyl the US can reign in Isreal, ...

I don't know Jay, you may be right, but sometimes I wonder which government is the other's sock puppet. Many Americans have a very strange sense of patriotism, valuing Likuds vision of what is good for Israel over what would be good for the US. The interesting thing is the arguments among Israelis about what is good for Israel appear, at least from here, to be much more open and realistic than the arguments in the States. If it makes you feel better, the neo-com crowd here thinks a wider war=peace and freedom. All you need to do is track down their Kool-Ade supplier and you'll be golden. That said, Israel is in a bad spot, which can only be improved by strengthening Lebanon's internal security, unfortunately that ship has probably already sailed.

MaggieL · 07-23-2006, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

The fact that it chooses not to do so now is saddening and demeans your great country.

What, that they're not crafting their foreign policy based on your world view?

I'm shocked. Truly. Your deep knowlege of foreign affairs and insight into human nature deserves the deepest respect. I shall write my Senator within a fortnight.

tw · 07-23-2006, 08:55 PM

There will be no ceasefire. Israel will invade Lebanon. Israel is simply waiting for a right time (politically) and maybe for a good excuse. In fact, I expected them to start tonight (Sunday night) because it would create less hype - less adverse reaction than later in the week.

There is no doubt of Israel's intent to cleanse 20 miles into Lebanon. Drive out everyone - innocents and Hezbollah alike. Then withdraw only when Lebanon's army occupies the border. But Lebanon threw a monkey wrench (shrewdly) into Israel's plans. Lebanon said the army would have to attack invading Israelis according to constitutional requirements. That rather stunned the Israelis and may have delayed the Lebanon invasion.

Israel is simply looking for cover to justify their obvious strategic objective - cleanse 20 miles into Lebanon. Literally drive all Lebanonese residents - Hezbollah and innocent civilians alike - for a 20 mile DMZ.

Israel can do so. The United States has told Israel to do just this and is running cover for an Israeli invasion. US is not playing honest broker. We have already declared Hezbollah as our enemy (like Saddam) - just not so publicly. Unlike all previous administrations, this one has defined the entire world in terms of 'good and evil'. No negotiation. As soon as time is right, we will either attack or send a proxy to attack that party, region, minority, or nation. We even play games with words such as nation and terrorist organization just to confuse a mostly ill informed American public with Rush Limbaugh type rhetoric.

No longer is anything to be solved by negotiation. This administration has decided to fix the world whether the world likes it or not - first with military solutions and unilateral attacks.

Only a matter of time before Israel invades. There will be no political or negotiated settlement. Welcome to a new world order that George Sr never envisioned and yet was defined in the Wolfovich paper that also defined unilateral attacks on India, Russia, or Germany. Do you understand why Putin in Russia is becoming so uncooperative and cautious? Why he is reinforcing his 'energy' weapons? Why free speech and the two houses of Parliament in Russia must be subverted?

The unanswerable question is whether Israel will also use this attack to 'soften' Syrian forces. To accidentally execute a major pre-emptive strike on Syria. Remember, the only adjacent nations that Israel will not attack are Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia - and only because America says who they must and cannot attack. Don't for one minute think these leaders are reacting to world events. They now have specific intentions that they would rather you do not understand.

Feel the wind. Something has clearly changed. If you don't feel it, then you are not paying attention to current events.

MaggieL · 07-23-2006, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw

We have already declared Hezbollah as our enemy (like Saddam) - just not so publicly.

Tell that to the Marines.

Undertoad · 07-23-2006, 09:07 PM

Aiyyo Chief, you'll know antagonistic and aggressive when you feel my steel-toe in your nuggets! Why I oughta ----

-- *koff* *koff* *koff* --

-- my inhaler! --

-- HOO00ooooONK --

-- snuffle snuffle snuffle --

a-haha-hem- a-ahah-hem! Aaaaanyway - As owner, I reserve the right to behave any way I see fit as long as everyone else does the same.

In fact, I asked everyone whether they wanted me to exhibit some sort of senatorial decorum, for the purposes of the Cellar, which otherwise would clearly be much more popular and be a greater source of wisdom and reason;

And they all said I should just stay the grizzly opinionated bastard that I am, so that when I'm particularly incorrect, as I am at least 50% of the time, they can laugh at me and get some enjoyment out of life.

Shrug. I figure, at least I'm providing a service.

Quote:

Oh, and yeah, the nuclear thing does worry me...... I see no fail-safe for Israel's nuclear force.

And yet it remains completely unused. Not even tested. Perhaps there are forces in the world you are not privy to.

JayMcGee · 07-23-2006, 09:16 PM

Tell that to the marines?

Your lack of insight is truly amazing, maggie.

Tw's post was extremley though-provoking: I believe he/she has analysed this situation to at least one level beyond my own efforts.

But, this is democratic board,. at least in principle., and you are entitled to your say...

So, maggie, just how would you you stop the jews killing arab children?

07-23-2006, 06:21 PM	#65
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	stop with the spelling-flames and haire-splitting, maggie. You know full-well my meaning. The US can exercise enormous influence over Israel, and has done so in the past. The fact that it chooses not to do so now is saddening and demeans your great country. Yes, I know it's an Israeli matter, and that Hezbollah are no angels, but that does not justify the slaughter of innocents nor the desrtruction of the infrastructer of a sovereign (and I would point out, a West-friendly) state. The obligation is upon all of us to help stop the violence....... that the state with the most influence is shirking its obligations bodes ill for ultimate peace in that region..... __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

07-23-2006, 07:37 PM	#67
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Tell me Jay, how much influence do you think we'll have after they've stopped fighting and it's still raining rocket in Israel? They would have to be psycho not to fire back when attacked. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-23-2006, 08:02 PM	#68
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	@UT..... first. drop the 'bucky' bit..... that alone is enough to set your post as antaganostic and agressive rather than debative.... as moderator/owner, you shoulld know better... To your other points..... The possiblilty of a voluntary cease fire is somewhat low, so an enforced one seems the best way to stop the killing of innocents on both sides.... and the US is about the only state that can enforce a cease-fire. That it won't do so is what gives me cause to castigate it. The Lebbonese govt/Hizbollah relationship is analogous to the Eire/IRA realtionship (cheap jibe number one: except that Hizbollah didn't get funded from collection tins in New York bars): the major differnce in policy is that the UK (Israel) did not bomb the crap out of Dublin (Beiruit). At that time, the IRA did not believe in a negotiated settlement. but long years of patience and diplomacy finally prevailled. And, of course, Hizbollah have no more hi-jacked Lebbenon than the IRA hi-jacked Eire.... And at this point, I would like to point out that the Lebbonese Govt is one of the few pro-Western govts in the region.... we should be doing all we can to support it rather than turing a blind eye to its destruction at the hands of the IDF. Oh, and yeah, the nuclear thing does worry me...... I see no fail-safe for Israel's nuclear force. __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

07-23-2006, 08:05 PM	#69
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	@nineth.... what happened to your much-vaunted patriots? Like the guns of Singapore, are they all pointed the wrong way? __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

07-23-2006, 09:16 PM	#75
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	Tell that to the marines? Your lack of insight is truly amazing, maggie. Tw's post was extremley though-provoking: I believe he/she has analysed this situation to at least one level beyond my own efforts. But, this is democratic board,. at least in principle., and you are entitled to your say... So, maggie, just how would you you stop the jews killing arab children? __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

07-23-2006, 07:29 PM	#66
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	That assumes that the best way to end the current violence is through enforced cease-fire. I don't think you've been listening to what Iran/Hisballah has been saying. They have no reason to cease fire. They believe they will win. They also believe that negotiation is weakness. Israel pulled back to the '67 borders in two places: Gaza and Lebanon. They have now been attacked on specifically those two borders. Why? You claim to like peace but you want the terrorists to maintain control of the country they have hijacked, with the 10,000 missiles they have built up and the money of oil-rich Islamist fundamentalist dictators with nukes. I don't think this "peace" you have in mind is going to work out. Sure engagement hasn't solved many problems, but disengagement has to be on both sides bucky, especially in this nukular age where the worst case is unthinkable.

07-23-2006, 08:55 PM	#72
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	There will be no ceasefire. Israel will invade Lebanon. Israel is simply waiting for a right time (politically) and maybe for a good excuse. In fact, I expected them to start tonight (Sunday night) because it would create less hype - less adverse reaction than later in the week. There is no doubt of Israel's intent to cleanse 20 miles into Lebanon. Drive out everyone - innocents and Hezbollah alike. Then withdraw only when Lebanon's army occupies the border. But Lebanon threw a monkey wrench (shrewdly) into Israel's plans. Lebanon said the army would have to attack invading Israelis according to constitutional requirements. That rather stunned the Israelis and may have delayed the Lebanon invasion. Israel is simply looking for cover to justify their obvious strategic objective - cleanse 20 miles into Lebanon. Literally drive all Lebanonese residents - Hezbollah and innocent civilians alike - for a 20 mile DMZ. Israel can do so. The United States has told Israel to do just this and is running cover for an Israeli invasion. US is not playing honest broker. We have already declared Hezbollah as our enemy (like Saddam) - just not so publicly. Unlike all previous administrations, this one has defined the entire world in terms of 'good and evil'. No negotiation. As soon as time is right, we will either attack or send a proxy to attack that party, region, minority, or nation. We even play games with words such as nation and terrorist organization just to confuse a mostly ill informed American public with Rush Limbaugh type rhetoric. No longer is anything to be solved by negotiation. This administration has decided to fix the world whether the world likes it or not - first with military solutions and unilateral attacks. Only a matter of time before Israel invades. There will be no political or negotiated settlement. Welcome to a new world order that George Sr never envisioned and yet was defined in the Wolfovich paper that also defined unilateral attacks on India, Russia, or Germany. Do you understand why Putin in Russia is becoming so uncooperative and cautious? Why he is reinforcing his 'energy' weapons? Why free speech and the two houses of Parliament in Russia must be subverted? The unanswerable question is whether Israel will also use this attack to 'soften' Syrian forces. To accidentally execute a major pre-emptive strike on Syria. Remember, the only adjacent nations that Israel will not attack are Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia - and only because America says who they must and cannot attack. Don't for one minute think these leaders are reacting to world events. They now have specific intentions that they would rather you do not understand. Feel the wind. Something has clearly changed. If you don't feel it, then you are not paying attention to current events.

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