Flag-Burning Teacher: A Lesson In Free Speech

Flint · 08-31-2006, 09:32 AM

Stuart Middle School Teacher Burns U.S. Flags In Class, Lesson Causes Uproar

"A Stuart Middle School teacher has been removed from the classroom after he burned two American flags in class during a lesson on freedom of speech, Jefferson County Public Schools officials said. Dan Holden, who teaches seventh-grade social studies, burned small flags in two different classes Friday and asked students to write an opinion paper about it, district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said. A teacher in the school district since 1979, Holden has been temporarily reassigned to non-instructional duties pending a district investigation."

Note: credit for this topic goes to phoeniks (a former AGer) who posted this 283-reply thread on Soundchain.

wolf · 08-31-2006, 09:45 AM

I know with today's ADD/short attention span/impulse control problem kids you have to do things to grab their attention and invest them in the educational process, but a simple discussion would have been more appropriate. I liked to be blowing stuff up in Chemistry class, but Social Studies should be more sedate. Don't they have film strips anymore?

Admittedly, I don't like flag burning, except as a means of destroying a damaged flag, but it's considered protected speech. Now, is there a "just because" exception to this? The teacher wasn't protesting anything, rather he was wantonly destroying the flags ...

Flint · 08-31-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

he was wantonly destroying the flags ...

...to stimulate thought on the subject. To do his job as a teacher.

glatt · 08-31-2006, 09:54 AM

You should only be burning stuff in a chemistry classroom, which has presumably been designed for that kind of stuff with the thick bench tops, and a possibly more robust sprinkler system. The guy probably broke some rules by having an open fire in the classroom.

But I've got no real problem with him burning a flag for an assignment. It's a stunt for getting the attention of the students. However, if lots of teachers start doing it, it loses its impact. So it's probably not such a good idea to be doing this.

wolf · 08-31-2006, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

...to stimulate thought on the subject. To do his job as a teacher.

Check with some of the other teachers here, but you don't have to smoke crack in front of your class to stimulate a discussion on drug use ...

Flint · 08-31-2006, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

...you don't have to...

No, you don't have to... (It isn't mandatory)

Undertoad · 08-31-2006, 10:13 AM

It sure would be educational though, wouldn't it? In my classes they just held up a board with "example" drugs tacked to it, so we could see that some drugs were powders and some were pills and some were dried leaves. After that we were "educated" I suppose since we could then identify different drugs by name.

Nobody asked why it was legal to have drugs tacked to a board and not in your pocket. Everybody wondered what the hell they really were and how they could get some to find out more. Well done, C. D. East Junior High School.

08-31-2006, 10:17 AM

I think it is a fine example and have no issue with it.

dar512 · 08-31-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The American President

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".

One of the best "speeches" I've seen in any movie.

Flint · 08-31-2006, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I think it is a fine example and have no issue with it.

I guess the thing is: can you even understand exactly what the objections to this constisted of?
And if so, do the objections appear to make sense to you, do they appear to be based on solid reasoning?

Edit: As phoeniks posted, "The question is "why is an issue" - and on several forums, so far, not one American has told me why. It's been up repeatedly as a constitutional amendment, yet you all blush and pretend it isn't there...it's the emotion, the reason, the wtf, that I am asking about. Something you take absolutely for granted but I don't understand at all. The elephant in the room. Flag burning... what's the fuss about?"

Hippikos · 08-31-2006, 10:46 AM

Free speech or freedom of expression is no excuse for abusing accepted social norms.

Freedom of expression is crucial for a democracy however it does not relieve oneself of the responsibility of self-governance.

Flint · 08-31-2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippikos

...abusing accepted social norms...

As Bart Simpson said: "But that's what we learned about! I sure as hell can't tell you we learned about hell unless I say hell can I? "

footfootfoot · 08-31-2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Don't they have film strips anymore?

Sigh. Where are the filmstrips of yesteryear?

9th Engineer · 08-31-2006, 10:58 AM

Ok, well you don't have to actually burn the flag to teach students any more than you need to burn books to make the same point. You can, but any added effectiveness of the lesson isn't enough to justify the destruction of a flag. Basically, a flag that is destroyed for a purpose supporting that which it stands for is a flag honored, but that isn't the case here.

Flint · 08-31-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

You can, but any added effectiveness of the lesson isn't enough to justify the destruction of a flag.

Why isn't it "justified"? What tangible harm was done in the course of teaching the lesson this way?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Basically, a flag that is destroyed for a purpose supporting that which it stands for is a flag honored, but that isn't the case here.

Why isn't that the case here? Teaching our kids what the flag stands for seems like a good cause...

08-31-2006, 09:32 AM	#1
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Flag-Burning Teacher: A Lesson In Free Speech Stuart Middle School Teacher Burns U.S. Flags In Class, Lesson Causes Uproar "A Stuart Middle School teacher has been removed from the classroom after he burned two American flags in class during a lesson on freedom of speech, Jefferson County Public Schools officials said. Dan Holden, who teaches seventh-grade social studies, burned small flags in two different classes Friday and asked students to write an opinion paper about it, district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said. A teacher in the school district since 1979, Holden has been temporarily reassigned to non-instructional duties pending a district investigation." Note: credit for this topic goes to phoeniks (a former AGer) who posted this 283-reply thread on Soundchain. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-31-2006, 09:45 AM	#2
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	I know with today's ADD/short attention span/impulse control problem kids you have to do things to grab their attention and invest them in the educational process, but a simple discussion would have been more appropriate. I liked to be blowing stuff up in Chemistry class, but Social Studies should be more sedate. Don't they have film strips anymore? Admittedly, I don't like flag burning, except as a means of destroying a damaged flag, but it's considered protected speech. Now, is there a "just because" exception to this? The teacher wasn't protesting anything, rather he was wantonly destroying the flags ... __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

08-31-2006, 10:46 AM	#11
Hippikos Flocci Non Facio Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In The Line Of Fire Posts: 571	Free speech or freedom of expression is no excuse for abusing accepted social norms. Freedom of expression is crucial for a democracy however it does not relieve oneself of the responsibility of self-governance. __________________ Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

08-31-2006, 10:58 AM	#14
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Ok, well you don't have to actually burn the flag to teach students any more than you need to burn books to make the same point. You can, but any added effectiveness of the lesson isn't enough to justify the destruction of a flag. Basically, a flag that is destroyed for a purpose supporting that which it stands for is a flag honored, but that isn't the case here. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

08-31-2006, 09:54 AM	#4
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	You should only be burning stuff in a chemistry classroom, which has presumably been designed for that kind of stuff with the thick bench tops, and a possibly more robust sprinkler system. The guy probably broke some rules by having an open fire in the classroom. But I've got no real problem with him burning a flag for an assignment. It's a stunt for getting the attention of the students. However, if lots of teachers start doing it, it loses its impact. So it's probably not such a good idea to be doing this.

08-31-2006, 10:13 AM	#7
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It sure would be educational though, wouldn't it? In my classes they just held up a board with "example" drugs tacked to it, so we could see that some drugs were powders and some were pills and some were dried leaves. After that we were "educated" I suppose since we could then identify different drugs by name. Nobody asked why it was legal to have drugs tacked to a board and not in your pocket. Everybody wondered what the hell they really were and how they could get some to find out more. Well done, C. D. East Junior High School.

08-31-2006, 10:17 AM	#8
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I think it is a fine example and have no issue with it.

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