Bridge Collapse

[Aliantha]

Are you suggesting that tw has some sort of disorder that makes him slightly more 'challenged' than the rest of us UB?

[Uisge Beatha]

To be honest, I don't really know. In fact, I simply don't know much about tw; we tend to travel in different circles around here. tw, from what I've noticed, spends most of his time in Current Events and Politics. I tend to avoid these areas, preferring to try to clown it up a bit elsewhere. Whatever has brought tw to the point of living with logic and not emotion has apparently given him a challenge in dealing with us.

[elSicomoro]

tw has been the way he is as long as I've been here--6 years and change.

I appreciate many of his points, and sometimes I even get a chuckle out of him. But he (along with a few other people on here) try too hard, IMO, to pull emotion out of their posts. And that is impossible...we are emotional people as a whole. So when these folks try to be unemotional, they come across as callous and asinine...and it understandably throws people for a loop.

Of course, it doesn't help that none of us have voices to rely on.

In the end, post how you want...just be aware of how you might come across. The Cellar is too decent of a place to be disrespectful to each other.

[xoxoxoBruce]

tw's a dick... tw's condecending... tw's arrogant... which is unfortunate because quite often tw's right. As grating as he can be, try to understand what he writes, which often takes a bit of interpretation, I know... then tell him to fuck off.

In 2005, the federal government rated the Minnesota bridge as "structurally deficient," a status that does not require that a bridge be closed or replaced.

"We know that the bridge was inspected in 2005 and 2006 by state inspectors, and while there was some stress and surface concerns noted, they didn't identify a need for the bridge to be replaced," said Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty.

More than 73,000 bridges were rated as "structurally deficient" in 2006, while an additional 80,000 were considered "functionally obsolete," according to federal transportation statistics.

The status does not mean a bridge is unsafe to use, Transportation Secretary Peters said at a news conference in Minneapolis just before noon. Peters also said that the federal government would immediately offer $5 million to the recovery effort and would supplant those funds as necessary.

Dan Dorgan, the director of bridges for the Minnesota Department of Transportation, laid out some of the structure's history that earned the bridge its "structurally deficient" status, citing reports over the last 20 years that had found bearing and corrosion problems, and fatigue cracks that were repaired in the early 1990s. Despite the federal designation, which a federal highway transportation official described as "programmatic," the bridge was still deemed fit for travel, Dorgan said.

One thing you can be sure of, Griff's trillion dollars could have rebuilt a lot of aging shit.

"A bridge in America shouldn't just fall down," Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar said at the news conference. She added that the collapse is a reminder that the nation's infrastructure needs to become a funding priority.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said the Minnesota bridge tragedy is a wake-up call on America's deteriorating infrastructure. "Since 9/11, we have taken our eye off the ball," said Reid, suggesting that infrastructure spending has taken a back seat to spending on the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Of course "top management" is making excuses already.

White House Press Secretary Tony Snow said this morning that while the deficiency status may not mean a bridge needs to be replaced, it is up to an individual state to deal with aging infrastructure.

"This doesn't mean there was a risk of failure, but if an inspection report identifies deficiencies, the state is responsible for taking corrective actions," Snow said.

Personally, I suspect the automatic deicing system they installed a few years ago. If, as I suspect, it uses that liquid salt crap they are squirting on the interstates now, it probably ate the rebar inside the concrete. We won't know for a year, if ever.

[elSicomoro]

This situation apparently scared St. Louis County enough to close the Old Gravois bridge.

[elSicomoro]

From Wikipedia:

Black ice

In February and December 1996, the Interstate Hwy. 35W bridge over the Mississippi River east of downtown Minneapolis was identified as the single most treacherous cold-weather spot in the Twin Cities freeway system, due to a thin layer of black ice causing spinouts and collisions on the bridge.[23][24] By January 1999, the state Transportation Department began testing liquid magnesium chloride and a mixture of magnesium chloride and a corn-processing byproduct to see whether either would reduce the black ice that appears on the bridge during the winter months.[25] In October 1999, the state embedded temperature-activated nozzles in the bridge deck to spray the bridge with liquid potassium acetate to keep the area free of winter black ice.[26] The system came into operation in 2000.[27][28]

[edit] Structural reviews

In the years prior to the collapse, several reports citing problems with the bridge were issued. In 1990, the federal government gave the I-35W bridge a rating of "structurally deficient," citing significant corrosion in its bearings.[29] A 2001 Minnesota Department of Transportation report indicated weakness at the joints of the steel that held the concrete deck above the river, due to "unanticipated out of plane distortion" of the steel girders. The report also noted a concern about lack of redundancy in the main truss system,[13] which meant the bridge had a greater risk of collapse in the event of any single structural failure. In 2005, the bridge, along with over 70,000 other US bridges[30], was rated as "structurally deficient" and in possible need of replacement, according to the US Department of Transportation's National Bridge Inventory database.[31] In a subsequent report, an inspection carried out June 15, 2006 found numerous problems, including fatigue cracking.[32]

Other topics of concern were the water erosion around the north piers (which were partially toppled in the collapse), steel substructure defects (especially near the south piers which toppled sideways in a scissors motion), problems with the bridge de-icing system,[33] thermal cycling of the structure, recent heavy rains and flooding on the I-35W highway.[34]

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

tw's a dick... tw's condecending... tw's arrogant... which is unfortunate because quite often tw's right. As grating as he can be, try to understand what he writes, which often takes a bit of interpretation, I know... then tell him to fuck off.

As usual Bruce you are right - more often than you may realize. You also create a persona of sorts, an image of a human comes to mind as I read what you post. With tw's posts my eyes roll up into my head, my brain hurts and then I virtually blackout from the realization that I have just been attacked by a borg
I too, respect him because he has valid points, but his utter lack of emotion his "assimilate or be terminated" arrogance is so grating that it makes it very difficult to get through all his bullshit. It becomes a chore to find that little nugget of reason, or his point that is in there somewhere wading amidst a vat of _______.

[elSicomoro]

I think it's funny that we're talking about him in 3rd person. Of course, he refers to us in 3rd person, so I guess it makes sense.

[yesman065]

He isn't a person - thats the funny part

[warch]

First, as I understand it, an identical bridge sits adjacent. Is it also failing? When was an emergency inspection conducted - and by whom?

Wrong. the entire north and southbound 35 W bridge collapsed. Each direction was reduced to two lanes from the usual four. so the load was reasonably balanced and actually lighter than usual. On a usual rush hour, take the victims x 2.

The standing bridge is older, not identical in that is not a single steel span. It is a four lane "top" street bridge, not a highway. It is at relatively the same height above the river as 35 used to be.

I've grown used to tw's manner. He touts the primacy of rationale, of the value of embracing a lack of emotion, yet his post are generally spiced with affect-laden phrases like "bean counters" and ironically are highly passionate, (no matter the logic) tirades. So, I am sort of humored by the irony of his argument that seems to escape him.

Yes there was structural failure. Do I blame Bush? no. Do I blame Pawlenty? no. Do I blame the tax payers league? (for alot of stuff but I think this thing was exempt from that noise.)

It strikes me, so far, as a human lack of understanding of the damage and threat. A poor decision but not necessarily with negligent intent. It may well have been the deicer, the rusting, the rumble of the train below, the heat, the vibration from the resurfacers, the fractures, all of the above. I want them to make sure this doesnt happen again. Surveyors were spotted on other bridges today. A lot of repair projects just got bumped to the top of the pile.

Has anyone seen the movie The Sweet Hereafter? I keep thinking about it as the blame is starting to swirl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sweet_Hereafter

[xoxoxoBruce]

Goddamnit Warch, why did Nichole Burnell lie?

[tw]

Originally Posted by ValleyGirl

With tw's posts my eyes roll up into my head, my brain hurts and then I virtually blackout from the realization that I have just been attacked by a borg

But you never were attacked. You cannot even cite a post where you were attacked. However the topic is an I-35W bridge. Instead, every Yesman065 post is to attack tw.

Yesman065 - you could not even see facts in this post.

First, as I understand it, an identical bridge sits adjacent. Is it also failing? When was an emergency inspection conducted - and by whom?
Second, this bridge was jammed with bumper to bumper traffic - mostly cars. That means a static load - not a 'heavier' dynamic load - composed of even lighter vehicles. ...
Third, Federal inspectors reported serious structural problems in 2005.

Instead Yesman065 goes into an emotional 'melt down' about how HE was hurt. Curious. Yesman065 was never insulted. But he repeatedly posts insults at tw. Funny. Just like a valley girl whose who world revolves around her, so does Yesman065 post.

Funny. ValleyGirl repeatedly posts insults, and then insists only he was insulted. Meanwhile, he could not even bother to post a single useful fact about the bridge. Only imporant were his his emotions concerning that bridge. Valley girl. Big dic is reseved for men who have one. Valley girls first and foremost worry about vanity. His head hurts. That is more important than dead people on future bridges.

[warch]

Incest. Still, ya gotta feel for Delores.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Uisge Beatha

tw, you may well intend no insult with anything you post, but the situation is complicated by your unique perspective. You don't seem capable of entertaining the emotional responses so common to the rest of us.

I have the same emotions. But I do not wear them on my sleeve. Notice which interviewed person gets aired on the news. The one that is crying. That give him credibility? Of course not. Those who wear their emtions on their sleeve are more often the lying party.

Meanwhile this is the post in question. Demonstrated is a difference between what yesman065 saw and what I saw. That yellow school bus: time to worry about it was long ago when this failure was predictable. Whereas contents of that bus were immediate concern to those on the bridge, instead, the rest of us should be worrying about all school busses. Show me where anything here insulted Yesman065. Why does Yesman065 never get past this first paragraph; completely ignore the technical facts? And why is it OK for Yesman065 to routinely insult me when I never once insulted him.

Well maybe I should post just like Yesman065. As so it begins.

[Uisge Beatha]

Originally Posted by tw

I have the same emotions. But I do not wear them on my sleeve.

I'll say this much for you, tw - you have a talent for understatement.