Vaccination & epidemic

[Skunks]

I don't think in re: Africa the issue is one of education or health awareness, but more the question of where children rank, culturally. We're pretty children-centric, all overpopulation aware and trying to get the infant mortality rate down more than it already is.

Not my area of limited-enough-to-bullshit awareness, but I read Dancing Skeltons once. What I got was: the poor health of developing children was due largely to the fact that their nutrition was considered after that of others.

Flip the coin around: if children should be seen and not heard, would a child not developing verbal skills be noticed?

[Clodfobble]

Yes, we can throw guesses out all day long as to why the results of a study that none of you have read might or might not have cultural flaws that our own educated and trained scientists are unable to compensate for.

Or, we can take the simplest route: the government has already admitted, twice, that in certain cases, vaccines and the MMR in particular can and did trigger certain types of autism in certain children. With 5,000+ identical cases waiting in line on the docket behind those two, and hundreds of thousands waiting in the wings, they had every motivation in the world not to set that precedent unless they absolutely had to, unless the evidence presented to them (which took years to present, by the way, it wasn't just a casual conversation on a message board) was so undeniable there was just no way around it.

The main consensus of scientific opinion on this subject is shifting, as science always does, and it is moving towards my side, not yours.

[Undertoad]

It would appear in the case of Hannah Poling that the government has "admitted" (by settling out of court) that thimerosal was responsible. That's not your position.

[Undertoad]

The NY Times Poling story: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/08/us/08vaccine.html

Originally Posted by NYTimes

“Let me be very clear that the government has made absolutely no statement indicating that vaccines are a cause of autism,” Dr. Julie L. Gerberding, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said Thursday. “That is a complete mischaracterization of the findings of the case and a complete mischaracterization of any of the science that we have at our disposal today.”

[jinx]

Do you have a link to the government admitting it was thimerosal specifically?

JULIE GERBERDING, DR., CDC DIRECTOR: "Well, you know, I don't have all the facts because I still haven't been able to review the case files myself. But my understanding is that the child has a -- what we think is a rare mitochondrial disorder. And children that have this disease, anything that stresses them creates a situation where their cells just can't make enough energy to keep their brains functioning normally. Now, we all know that vaccines can occasionally cause fevers in kids. So if a child was immunized, got a fever, had other complications from the vaccines. And if you're predisposed with the mitochondrial disorder, it can certainly set off some damage. Some of the symptoms can be symptoms that have characteristics of autism."

Actually, no one knows if she was predisposed with a mitochondrial disorder, or if she developed it, along with autism, after receiving 5 vaccines against 9 antigens in one day because she had fallen behind the mandated schedule due to illness.

[Undertoad]

Uh well no actually... there's no full published record of the court's proceedings as far as I can tell, but that was the father's position and largely the position of the 5,000 cases that Clod mentions. Mercury is damaging to mitochondria.

Since 2002, petitioners have filed approximately 4,900 claims arguing that vaccines caused the petitioners’ autism. The Court is holding hearings before Special Masters on three different theories: (1) that the Mumps-Measles-Rubella vaccine together with thimerosal causes autism; (2) that thimerosal alone causes autism; and (3) that MMR alone causes autism.

Poling was in this group. Now here's all you need to know about the "omnibus autism courts" set up for the 5,000 claims:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...0901344_2.html

Originally Posted by WaPo

The shift from laboratory to courtroom means the outcome will hinge not on scientific standards of evidence but on a legal standard of plausibility -- what one lawyer for the families called "50 percent and a feather." That may make it easier for the plaintiffs to sway the panel of three "special masters," which is why the decision could not only change the lives of thousands of American families but also have a profound effect on the decisions of parents around the world about whether to vaccinate their children.

Bold mine. Despite this fact, the 5,000 cases have been dismissed via the Omnibus after the special masters found no evidence in three test cases (Poling was not one of the test cases).

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

It would appear in the case of Hannah Poling that the government has "admitted" (by settling out of court) that thimerosal was responsible. That's not your position.

There is no such thing as "settling out of court" in this case. It is not a civil suit, it is a specially-commissioned body that rules for or against compensation to the victim. They ruled in favor of compensation to cover her medical expenses.

And in the Bailey Banks case, his vaccines did not contain thimerosal.

In sum, the Court’s factual findings are fourfold:

1. Bailey did show evidence of ataxia in the period surrounding his seizure, following his vaccination;

2. Such ataxia, when considered in conjunction with the radiological results and some other “soft indicia”, together support the Court’s finding that Bailey did, in fact, suffer from ADEM.

3. Bailey’s ADEM was caused-in-fact and proximately caused by his vaccination. It is wellunderstood that the vaccination at issue can cause ADEM, and the Court finds, on the record filed herein, that it did actually cause the ADEM.

4. Bailey’s ADEM was severe enough to cause lasting, residual damage, and retarded his developmental progress, which fits under the generalized heading of Pervasive Developmental Delay, or PDD. Additionally, this chain of causation was not too remote, but was rather a proximate sequence of cause and effect leading inexorably from vaccination to Pervasive Developmental Delay.

What's more, the Bailey Banks legal proceedings also reference two previous rulings that I had never even heard of:

Petitioner cites to two previous cases heard by this Court where the Special Master found that the MMR vaccine had caused ADEM: Tufo v. Secretary of HHS, No. 98-0108V, 2001 WL 286911, 2001 US Claims LEXIS 46 (Fed. Cl. Spec. Mstr. Mar. 2, 2001) and Lodge v. Secretary of HHS, No. 92-0697V, 1994 WL 34609, 1994 US Claims LEXIS 19 (Fed. Cl. Spec. Mstr. Jan 25, 1994). Petitioner also cites to the 1994 report of the IOM, which found the theory that a vaccine can “induce...an autoimmune response...by nonspecific activation of the T cells directed against myelin proteins” to be “biologically plausible.”

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

there's no full published record of the court's proceedings as far as I can tell

I don't know about the Hannah Poling records, but the full court proceedings in the Bailey Banks case are included in the link I posted.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

There is no such thing as "settling out of court" in this case. It is not a civil suit, it is a specially-commissioned body that rules for or against compensation to the victim. They ruled in favor of compensation to cover her medical expenses.

I think what he means is that the CDC conceded the biological plausibility of the Poling's [expert's] claims without an an evidentiary hearing.

The Polings’ expert testified in court that the five vaccines administered had “stressed” her already weakened system and worsened her developing autism. The court was persuaded, without even holding a hearing, that the claim was biologically plausible and ruled in the Poling family’s favor. Damages have not yet been determined.

Note also that the ruling did not address what vaccine or what additive, ie, thimerosal, was the villain in this case;

link

[OnyxCougar]

Links regarding vaccinations and their effect on the autoimmune system (and demyelination) here.

(The site is drcarley.com. She was an MD, and speaks out specifically against Vaccines. Alot of folks dismiss her as a quack, and she has had her license taken away because of her stance on these issues, but I want to point out that what she is saying in these articles on her website are the same things that are being said in these court cases that have been sourced in this thread. I wanted to post that up front, before anyone tries to dismiss her findings simply because of her politics.)

There are videos of her on youtube that are particularly informative, and clod's explanation of how vaccines bypass the inital IgA stage of the immune system is a paraphrase of Dr. Carley's explanation.

I also want to point out this:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canad...7/8560781.html
and
in Czech and in Czech and in Czech

as well as

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs

Now the CDC has recommended over half the Americal population get the H1N1 flu shot.

The flu shot they are recommending is three injections. The first totally wipes out your immune system, so that you feel great (because your body isn't fighting anything any more). The second shot bypasses your normal immune system function and gives you whatever disease they want you to have, and the third shot turns your immunesystem back on. Either you'll die immediately (within 3 days) or your body will exhaust itself fighting off the disease, and most of the people will die anyway. (That's Dr. Carley.)

Now we're hearing about the possibility of mandatory H1N1 vaccinations? I don't think so.

[Clodfobble]

No offense OC, but when you're trying to garner credibility for your cause, referencing people who claim that the majority of people who receive the H1N1 vaccine are going to die... it doesn't really help.

I mean, come on. Is the flu shot a bad idea? Yes, I absolutely think so. Is it going to outright kill the majority, or even a significant percentage of the people who get it? No way.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by jinx

Actually, no one knows if she was predisposed with a mitochondrial disorder, or if she developed it, along with autism, after receiving 5 vaccines...

Mitochondrial dysfunction, impaired oxidative-reduction activity, degeneration, and death in human neuronal and fetal cells induced by low-level exposure to thimerosal and other metal compounds

Thimerosal-induced cellular damage as evidenced by concentration- and time-dependent mitochondrial damage, reduced oxidative-reduction activity, cellular degeneration, and cell death in the in vitro human neuronal and fetal model systems studied. Thimerosal at low nanomolar (nM) concentrations induced significant cellular toxicity in human neuronal and fetal cells. Thimerosal-induced cytoxicity is similar to that observed in AD pathophysiologic studies. Thimerosal was found to be significantly more toxic than the other metal compounds examined.

[TheMercenary]

Interesting. But:

1. They were In Vitro studies.

2. And I agree with the conclusions, "Future studies need to be conducted to evaluate additional mechanisms underlying Thimerosal-induced cellular damage and assess potential co-exposures to other compounds that may increase or decrease Thimerosal-mediated toxicity." This is a single study.

3. I am glad to see someone taking a closer look at the science of it all.

[Undertoad]

I thought thimerosal was ruled out.

[jinx]

You better call the authors and tell them... boy, are they gonna feel pretty stupid...