Belgian committee votes for full Islamic veil ban

[morethanpretty]

A Belgian parliamentary committee has voted to ban face-covering Islamic veils from being worn in public.

The home affairs committee voted unanimously to endorse the move, which must be approved by parliament for it to become law.

Such a vote could be held within weeks, correspondents say, meaning that Belgium could become the first European country to implement a ban.

France is also considering restricting face-covering veils.

There are several types of headscarves and veils for Muslim women - those that cover the face being the niqab and the burka.

'Dangerous precedent'

The BBC's Dominic Hughes reports from Brussels that there are about 500,000 Muslims in Belgium, and the Belgian Muslim Council says only a couple of dozen wear full-face veils.


Find out about different styles of Muslim headscarf

In graphics

Several districts of Belgium have already banned the burka in public places under old local laws originally designed to stop people masking their faces completely at carnival time.

The wording of the draft law approved by the parliamentary committee says the ban would apply to areas accessible to the public - which would include people walking in the street or using public transport - and would be enforced by fines or even prison.

Denis Ducarme, from the Belgian centre-right Reformist Movement that proposed the bill, said he was "proud that Belgium would be the first country in Europe which dares to legislate on this sensitive matter".

A colleague, Corinne De Parmentier, said: "We have to free women of this burden."

But the proposal has alarmed some who see it as an attack on civil liberties.

Isabelle Praile, the vice-president of the Muslim Executive of Belgium, said any law could set a dangerous precedent.

"Today it's the full-face veil, tomorrow the veil, the day after it will be Sikh turbans and then perhaps it will be mini-skirts," she was quoted as saying by AFP news agency.

I understand why this would be an issue, but I think its a huge violation of personal freedom to tell another what they can/can't wear in public.

A colleague, Corinne De Parmentier, said: "We have to free women of this burden."

Again, it is not their place to "free" the women of a burden unless the women are asking for such help.

[squirell nutkin]

Relax, MTP it's part of a well tested, long term strategy. Next comes banning the religion, forbidding ownership of real estate, holding public office, speaking their native language, teaching reading and writing in that language, public assembly, voting, and so on.

The English did it to the Irish, The Germans to the Jews, Poles, Gypsies, et al. It goes on and on.

I don't know the answer all I can say is I can't stand intolerant people...

[Undertoad]

It's a slippery slope.

[TheMercenary]

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

I understand why this would be an issue, but I think its a huge violation of personal freedom to tell another what they can/can't wear in public.



Again, it is not their place to "free" the women of a burden unless the women are asking for such help.

Just to play devils advocate here, but don't most western cultures require people (women included) to wear clothes in public? If you don't wear clothes you get punished for indecent exposure etc.

I guess there must be some line between not enough, and too much that I'm missing here.

Personally, I think anyone should be allowed to wear or not wear whatever they like.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Just to play devils advocate here, but don't most western cultures require people (women included) to wear clothes in public? If you don't wear clothes you get punished for indecent exposure etc.

I guess there must be some line between not enough, and too much that I'm missing here.

Personally, I think anyone should be allowed to wear or not wear whatever they like.

Yes they do have public decency laws that don't allow nakedness in public. I think that is slightly a different issue (most people do not have nakedness as a requirement by their religion), but yes again, the public decency laws are a violation of personal freedom. I just think its less intrusive overall. Maybe I'm not as outraged by them because I'm used to them. Damn Puritans.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by squirell nutkin

Relax, MTP it's part of a well tested, long term strategy. Next comes banning the religion, forbidding ownership of real estate, holding public office, speaking their native language, teaching reading and writing in that language, public assembly, voting, and so on.

The English did it to the Irish, The Germans to the Jews, Poles, Gypsies, et al. It goes on and on.

I don't know the answer all I can say is I can't stand intolerant people...

lol

Actually, it's more akin to the Kulturkampf policies of the late 19th century German Empire. Which was specifically aimed at Catholics and catholicism. The now famous effect of which was to strengthen catholicism and make catholics waay more hardcore.

[classicman]

I wonder how walking into a bank wearing a ski mask in the middle of the summer would be received.
Just sayin'

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

I think that is slightly a different issue (most people do not have nakedness as a requirement by their religion),...

Just the be clear, it is NOT and requirement of their religion. It's a cultural requirement in certain tribes/sects.

[DanaC]

But it is how women of those particular tribes/sects express their modesty, which very much is a religious matter.

I think it's ridiculous and utterly counter productive. The veil has become more and more symbolic of a moslem identity within the western secular world. Even amongst women whose mothers never wore one. Young moslem women are taking to the veil in droves, precisely because it is becoming so fraught and full of meaning.

If we actually wanted moslem women to stop wearing the veil we'd have been better off ('we' being the West) just fucking ignoring it.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by classicman

I wonder how walking into a bank wearing a ski mask in the middle of the summer would be received.
Just sayin'

It would be deemed suspicious. Rightly so. Nobody wears a ski mask in the day in Summer, unless they're skiing.

The two are not analogous.

How would it be seen if a woman walked into a bank wearing a snood, in the middle of winter? Or if an elderly lady walked into a bank wearing a hat with a veil? Hundred years ago it wouldn't have raised an eyebrow, because veiled hats were quite common. Go to a funeral and you still see them.

The whole thing is riduclous. It's grossly illiberal.

[Sundae]

I have no problem with it.
It's just a signal.
"Dozens" of women affected?
Probably more naturists are affected by "decency" laws.

It's like the immigration advert the Dutch made which showed same sex couples embracing, which was supposedly offensive to Muslims. So what? Don't come here if you won't accept our culture.

I'm not racist, xenophobic or anti-Islam in any way. I worked and was friends with plenty of Muslim colleagues in Leicester. This law does not persecute in any way. It simply draws a line in tolerance. We do NOT accept female circumcism in this country. We do NOT accept multiple marriages. We are suspect about the veil. I'm not sure we should ban it, but if the rest of Europe goes that way I am happy to accept it.

[DanaC]

I'm completely against it. Mainly because of the Kulturkampf effect. The weight of meaning which is being attached to the veil these days is ensuring that any moslem woman who wishes to express her Islamic identity will wear a veil. It is becoming less and less acceptable for moslem women to choose not to do so.

I heard a French woman on the radio a few years ago qwhen France was looking to ban the veil in schools. She said when she was young she fought for her right not to wear a veil. Now she fights for her daughter's right to wear it.

Aside from the more thought out and conscious decision to adopt the veil in public, made by liberated moslem women; what about the more traditional communities? In my town the moslem community is almost exclusively from Kashmir, and mostly from one village in particular. They are drawn from a very traditional, rural community. Many of the women are brides brought over from the old country and many do not speak English. Many wear veils outside; though some cover only part of their face. They do not take driving lessons, because it is improper for them to be out there amongst the men, and most driving instructors are male. They primarily keep to their own parts of the town.

I briefly volunteered at an ESOL class, to which benefits claimants were sent after 6 months of claiming, if they did not pass the language class. We had mainly moslem men, but a handful of local moslem women. They only ever spoke up, or answered questions when they were in a separate room from the men. They rarely made eyecontact particularly if the men were around.

At a local community centre in the Asian area, a small group of moslem women set up a language class/club for other Asian women. It was very popular, lots of the local women attended. The local Imam was not happy. The men systematically undermined that group and many prevented their wives from attended. It eventually folded.

If we were to ban the veil; it would not create a liberal environment for those wives. If wearing a veil outside becomes illegal, their response will not be to go out without the veil,. it will be to not go out at all. We would effectively shove those women into an even tighter, culturally enforced purdah.

Their daughters meanwhile will end up either rebelling against their community, and losing their cultural moorings when the male-dominated culture closes the door on them; or they will rebel against us and become resolutely and exclusively moslem and anti-western.

Utterly counter productive.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

But it is how women of those particular tribes/sects express their modesty, which very much is a religious matter.

Balderdash, it's how they convince the men that control them, of their modesty... which is cultural.

[Trilby]

I thought this was going to be about waffles.