aggressive parents

[Aliantha]

Yeah...I've got to say, there are times when kids can drive you completely nuts. I have one boy who just never shuts up. If he hasn't got something to say (which is rare) he'll be either singing or making weird noises or tapping his hands or feet - or both. The other is the complete opposite. Even when you speak directly to him it's hard to get a word out. One is the result of the other I know, but still, the noisy one irritates the quiet one constantly. Even when I tell them they're gay because they can't stop touching each other they just laugh and think it's funny. (and it is a joke - unless one of them is gay - in which case, I have a real problem with the brother touching. lol) Anyway, what I'm saying is, kids can be almost intollerable even when they are giggling and carrying on, especially when that sort of behaviour is inappropriate such as in a restaurant.

[Aliantha]

On the flip side, I can't stand parents who don't discipline their kids at all either. I'm not sure which is worse from a completely impartial non emotional point of view.

[Shawnee123]

I'm all for shooting them if they get out of hand.

I'm kidding. I kid.

[Pooka]

I see that all the time... There is certainly a better way to resolve it then hitting. I don't care where we are... I'll find a time out spot if I have to… I’ve even been known to remove them from wherever we are, but hitting is not acceptable. Kids behave according to what they have been taught and what they see.
The thing is training a dog isn't that much different... both kids and dogs exhibit many of the same behaviors and respond likewise.
I am a big fan of a combination of Attachment Parenting and Logical Consequences. I have only spanked one… and it was because my daughter bit my son… she was about 2 and he was about 6 months… I needed her to understand the pain before I could tell her why inflicting it was wrong… I apologized to her and I told her she hurt brother and needed to apologize to him and then she had to sit in time out. We use time out a lot. I also have to remind myself often… is what they are doing age appropriate?
My friends on the other hand… most of them have unruly kids… it drives me crazy. I don’t keep my kids from hanging out with them… I think it is important for kids to learn how to deal with difficult personalities, but I continue to put them in time out even while my friends let their kids run crazy and they proceed to yell at them. Now I’ll admit… I am a far cry from a perfect parent… we joke with them that they can deal with “Nice Mama” or “Mean Mama” the choice is up to them…. Sometimes they really get under my skin and I know my reaction isn’t what it should be, but when I see how others act I feel a bit better about myself.

[ZenGum]

Purely theoretical thoughts here, as a non-parent:

Yep, a lot like puppy training - clear rules, consistent enforcement. And as Pooka mentioned, kids learn by copying their parents.

That said, some kids are just born weird. A cow orker of mine has a son who is ... problematic. Two parents, both conscientious at it, child is behaving like a classic psychopath. Recently their boy was at day-care. He has been a serial offender at physically stealing toys from smaller kids. He was seen last week stealing a toy from a babe (about 14 months) and holding his hand over the other kid's mouth so the carers wouldn't hear him wailing. Clever, shows he has theory of mind, but disturbing ... their boy is 18 months old!

Robert Hare, author of "Without conscience" and world expert on psychopaths, argues that while most psychopaths are "made" by childhood trauma and abuse, a fair number are born that way. It seems that emotion and empathy evolved as a way of engineering cooperation, but some people don't get the empathy thing working properly.

The case that started this thread doesn't sound like that, though. I think the problem there is that many people get into parenting either unintentionally, or without grasping just how much constant effort it takes. Half-assed parenting produces ill-behaved brats.

[HungLikeJesus]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

Purely theoretical thoughts here, as a non-parent:

Yep, a lot like puppy training - clear rules, consistent enforcement. And as Pooka mentioned, kids learn by copying their parents.

...

Plus, I suppose it goes without saying, a short chain and a lockable kennel.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Flint

Funny, all I see everywhere I go are permissive parents with shitty-behaved kids who need to be yelled at.

Originally Posted by thud85

There's that too sure... but being too permissive won't leave the kid with fractured bones and shattered self-image.

No, but not giving them the opportunity to learn the rules of life isn't giving them a fair chance to be successful as a person.

Originally Posted by thud85

I like your Bozzio quote btw, Flint

Thank you. A Terry Bozzio quote that quotes Joseph Campbell--how cool is that? Thanks for noticing.

[GunMaster357]

While I don't have kids, I've been around the critters for quite some time. My cousins are quite prolific (their kids will probably become parents in 3 or 4 years from now) and my brother is the proud father of a 14 months son.

I see a lot of people screaming at their kids at the beach, the mart, theater, etc... And every time, it is something like : "Keep doing that, and you'll get a spanking".

Well, after the twentieth time in as many minutes, the kid knows with certainty it'll never come. Hence the reasonning : "I can do whatever I want, I'll never be punished".

There's no need to even leave a bruise, just one spank that stings enough without being harmful, and that kid will learn that there are rules, that breaking them brings retaliation.

After that, you have to explain the why, quickly if the kid is young, a bit later if not.

Problem is that some parents do not seem to be equiped for the job. Unfortunately, the job of a parent is, as my mother puts it, the only one for which you are not asked qualifications.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by GunMaster357

I see a lot of people screaming at their kids at the beach, the mart, theater, etc... And every time, it is something like : "Keep doing that, and you'll get a spanking".

Well, after the twentieth time in as many minutes, the kid knows with certainty it'll never come. Hence the reasonning : "I can do whatever I want, I'll never be punished".

I agree with your conclusion, but not with the reasoning.
I hear the same - with different threats - again and again and again.
But the solution is - be consistent!

You don't need to threaten violence. And certainly not deliver it.
I don't see why people think violence will always work. What? It doesn't in other parts of life, at best it diminishes and belittles people - why would you want to do that to your children?

But yeah - if you tell your child once that they will lose a toy, or not go McDonalds, or not get sweeties or whatever the bribe of the moment is... and then you say it again... and again... and again...
Nah. That's not going to work. That leads to children screaming and standing up and hitting and shouting, "Yes I will!! Yes I will!"


Now I know about discipline:
I say to Diz, "No. You are not going to jump up there. No. I always have to get you down. No."
then
"Go on then. But I'm not going to get you down."
then
"Come on. Come on down Babba. I'll get you."

Yeah. I'd be a crummy parent.
So I know it's harder to know the rules than stick to them.
But Diz doesn't understand me.
I am not messing with his cat-brain (might is right in a cat's world).
He'll never be too big for me NOT to manhandle.
And after all, he's not really set up to affect anyone else's life.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I don't see why people think violence will always work.

Because it's worked for 100,000 years, before Dr Spock.

But Diz doesn't understand me.

If you squirted him with a water pistol he would.

[classicman]

Bwahahahahahahaha @Bruce

[GunMaster357]

I'm sorry I didnt push my explanation further. I do not condone violence especially against kids, but if you issue a threat you have to be prepared to carry it to its conclusion.

If you prove to the kid that you are ready to call his bluff, then next time maybe he'll listen to you when you say that enough is enough.

That is all I was saying. Resorting systematically to violence is not only counterproductive but makes the child himself violent toward (or towards - I remember a thread about this) those that are feebler than him.

[HungLikeJesus]

What do you mean by "violence"? What if you just quietly snip off a finger? That's not violent.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by GunMaster357

If you prove to the kid that you are ready to call his bluff, then next time maybe he'll listen to you when you say that enough is enough.

Yeah, but you have to do it right away, which limits the threats you can use. Giving them a swat on the butt is immediate... as is snipping off a finger.

[classicman]

but you can only snip off a finger 8 times