Vaccination & epidemic

[lumberjim]

One more time.


If they let you choose which vaccines to give your kids, did them ONE AT A TIME, and provided you with unbiased facts about the risks and benefits of each vaccine. ....I think I probably would give my kids certain ones.

When it was time to make the decision, we saw a higher risk of injury from the vaccine than exposure and injury by one or all of the diseases.

I'm not telling you what you should do with your kids. I am telling you what we did and why.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But is all medicine Playing God, or just the parts that sound freaky and/or scary and/or we don't know how they work exactly?

I don't know. Do you still beat your wife?

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But is all medicine Playing God ... ?

You just had to go and ask didn't you. Now we're going to have to call in an Epidemiotheologian and that's gonna cost big bucks man!

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But is all medicine Playing God?

Originally Posted by lumberjim

I don't know.

Then why'd ya bring it up?

[lumberjim]

Because you said we're all dum. We don't know what we're doing. You disclaim calling me dum, but then use a Dummed down analogy to illustrate your point that I should just trust the experts.
Then you try to make me sound like a Jehovas witness. Wtf?

I'm saying that when in doubt, you're better off trusting nature (god) than man made work arounds(playing God). Shelby breast fed the kids for the same reason.

We were in doubt.

Ok, bro. I'm done with this. We did what we felt was the best thing for our kids at the time. You clearly think we should have done the immunizations. I get it. thing is, they are my responsibility, not yours or orthodocs, or the lying doctorette. Mine. You can disagree with my conclusion and choose yours when you have kids. Just, please stop intimating that we chose our path out of ignorance or fear.

Damn

[Undertoad]

You read that into what I said more than I wrote it.

[lumberjim]

Perhaps

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

Back in 1999, our first pediatrician (a large practice) stopped seeing us because we decided not to get the mmr. The doctor that was trying to convince us to get it was maybe 27 years old. She said she had seen so many kids die of measles, and it was a horrible killer.

I think there were something like 60 cases of measles reported per year in the US at that time and 0 fatalities. I think they had a dog in the fight. Maybe she lied. Maybe she had been living in India. ... but she was clearly deceptive.

Do doctor's practices keep statistics of how many patients are/are not vaccinated? Are there financial ramifications or rewards involved?

It's not unlikely that she had indeed been to India or Nigeria or some other country where children still die of measles. When I was in university, in Canada, we didn't spend time overseas; now most students do. And there are many opportunities for American medical students to spend time in countries where they would see many children die of preventable diseases. You can't assume she was being deceptive.

There are no financial ramifications or 'rewards' involved in trying to provide the best possible health care, which is PREVENTIVE health care. Which includes immunizations. Immunization is possibly the single most important advance in medical history. It began with protection against smallpox, a global scourge at the time.

You resent any implication that you may be 'dum' (something I never suggested), yet you're comfortable smearing every physician who busts his/her balls to provide proven, tested care to people who need it. We don't often go for alternative medicine, because alternative medicine, once, tested and confirmed effective, is simply MEDICINE. The other stuff is charlatanism.

But you live in the Land of the Free and you're free to regard measles as an 'of course children get it and it's no big deal' disease. Trouble is, you're wrong. It kills; when it doesn't kill, it causes blindness and encephalitis. The physicians who had to watch their patients suffer this disease were wholly on board with immunization programs.

Would you sneer at TB? It's still out there and we're susceptible. Infectious disease is a global issue now; it takes less than 24 hours for an airborne disease to circle the globe. Both measles and TB are airborne diseases.

FFS. I don't know of any physician who is 'in league' in any way with vaccine companies, who has a dog in the fight. We just read the fucking medical literature and realize that the numbers speak the truth.

You made a choice for your kids and they have to live with it. Chances are, if they stay in the US, they'll fly under the radar because others protected them. But immigration and visitation patterns change all the time, and they may not be protected. If they get these diseases as adults, not only will they have a more severe form (remember, measles kills and blinds in children); they'll communicate the disease to vulnerable people before they even know they have it.

That's your freedom; that's your choice. As long as you realize that you're playing Russian roulette with not only your children's lives, but their children's and those of others as well, and you're comfortable with that, knowing that not ONE concern about vaccines has stood the test of careful scrutiny.

[Aliantha]

Vaccination issues is a hot topic here after a boy who was infectious with measles spent a day at one of our biggest theme parks during spring break.

For my part, i am sure the parents wouldn't have allowed such a thing on purpose, but there would be a high risk for lots of children too young to be immunised.

Personally, i dont see any proof against immunisation which stacks up against the possible risks of not doing it. I have made my point here before though, so no need to do it again.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

When it was time to make the decision, we saw a higher risk of injury from the vaccine than exposure and injury by one or all of the diseases.

Good. You have numbers. After all, such decisions always - as in always - require perspective only possible with numbers. Since you knew better than biased doctors, then provide those numbers. Let all see this problem since honest discussion is always about sharing such important facts.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

If they let you choose which vaccines to give your kids, did them ONE AT A TIME, and provided you with unbiased facts about the risks and benefits of each vaccine. ....I think I probably would give my kids certain ones.

Have you held your baby while it got a shot?

Would you really wanted them to get four separate shots? Or one with everything in it.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

Have you held your baby while it got a shot?

Would you really wanted them to get four separate shots? Or one with everything in it.

You feeling alright?

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by tw

Good. You have numbers. After all, such decisions always - as in always - require perspective only possible with numbers. Since you knew better than biased doctors, then provide those numbers. Let all see this problem since honest discussion is always about sharing such important facts.

If I was trying to convince you of something, I might link numbers. I don't really care if you approve of my actions though.

Back in 1998-1999 when we were faced with this decision, jinx did tons of research about vaccine injuries and deaths or illnesses related to the diseases the vaccines are made to combat. As I stated, there were zero deaths due to measles in the US. There were many more cases of vaccine related injury, increasing incidence of autism, digestive disorders, etc. There was also a good bit of controversy about the businesses that manufacture the vaccines getting protection from liability due to alleged injury.

It seemed far more likely that there would be a negative reaction to the vaccine than the remote chance of contraction of, and subsequent harm by one of the diseases.

I didn't even mention that Spencer came up with a rash on his face and scalp (eczema was the diagnosis) 2 or 3 days after one of the early shots he got before we started having second thoughts about them.

He had bad mood swings throughout his childhood if he had too much dairy. Ripley would get a bright red patch on her face, and bad poopies if she had dairy. Clod could probably tell you more about what that indicates.... but I truly believe we did the right thing. And I KNOW we did what we did in an informed and logical manner.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

You feeling alright?

Not bad, considering. I'm mostly pain free these days, which is a blessing. My energy is better since I started taking sublingual B12 in addition to the monthly shot. The bile-salt diarrhea is improving but I'm still in the bathroom a lot. And I never trust a fart.

How you doin'?

[lumberjim]

I'm good.