Ascension of Christ

[lumberjim]

1

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Mark 16:15-20

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Luke 24:50-53

</td></tr><tr valign="top" id="liii.p3.1"><td valign="top" id="liii.p3.2">15. And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He who shall believe and be baptized shall be saved; but he who shall believe shall be condemned. 17. And these signs shall follow those who shall believe: In my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.19. And after the Lord had thus spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by accompanying signs.

</td><td valign="top" id="liii.p4.1">50. And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51. And it came to pass that, while he was blessing them, he withdrew from them, and was carried up into heaven. 52. And having worshipped him, they returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53. And were always in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

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I started to just ask the question, "what happened to Jesus after he arose from the grave?" but realized i was just being lazy, and googled it. There's really not a whole lot about it. I read that he popped in and out for 40 days speaking to disciples here, Holy women there., etc. Then he ~ascended~ into 'heaven' whilst blessing his disciples. Jesus floated up into the air? I wish there had been a couple of better observers around at the time. I'd like to know what they mean by "taken up to heaven" and "was carried up into heaven". Did God reach down and pick him up? No, literally.....did he just keep getting higher and higher until they couldn't see him anymore, or did he kind of like, fade away up in the air a little bit? There are obvious question to follow those, but I really didn;t intend this to be a sarcastic thing. I am actually curious about this aspect for some reason. I'm not trying to convert anyone to atheism or anything, but I'd like to know what you Christians were taught and/or accept as the truth about the time after the ressurection. The details. If there are any. Looking into it, a bit, I see that he was also pretty much incognito for most of the time between age 12

"When he was twelve years old" Jesus accompanied His parents to Jerusalem, 'according to the custom of the feast'; When they returned, the child Jesus remained in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not." After three days, they found him in the Temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing them, and asking them questions." It was on this occasion that Jesus spoke the only words that have come down from the period of His hidden life:

and somewhere between 27 and 30 yrs old.
And then crucified at age 30 or 34...maybe 33. but it was definitely in April.

Researchers from Newton to Schaefer have essentially agreed on dates of lunar visibility, but not on the resultant crucifixion date. The two most accepted dates are Friday, AD 30 April 7, and Friday AD 33 April 3. It has been known that (Sir Isaac) Newton preferred Friday, AD 34 April 23, but his reasons apparently have been forgotten.

then the next Sunday, the stone is rolled back, and he arises, and goes ....where?

[Clodfobble]

Did you ever get around to reading "Lamb," lumberjim?

[lumberjim]

yeah, i read that. i thin i recommended it on here a couple of times. that just deals with his early years as I recall.

[smoothmoniker]

Lumberjim, a more descriptive version comes from Acts 1:9-11

"After he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight. As they were still staring into the sky while he was going, suddenly two men in white clothing stood near them and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts was written by Luke (the same Luke from the Gospel of Luke) as a continuing history of the early church. Luke is probably the best observer and most detailed of the canonical writers (with the possible exception of Paul). He was trained as a doctor, and received a Greek Academy education, a rare thing in those days.

So, the basic sketch is, yes, he was lifted up into the sky. I don’t think we need to presume a “Hand of God” coming and grabbing him, ala Monty Python. And after a while, he was hidden by a cloud.

-sm

[lumberjim]

thanks.

[Troubleshooter]

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible raises some interesting questions about that chapter and the ascension.

[Slartibartfast]

The words in the Bible are a big question mark, your right. Did Jesus just keep rising forever, out of the atmosphere, out into space, into a wormhole? Was it some dimensional effect? Where is heaven? It seems to be 'up'. Those Christians that teach that Jesus really did rise into heaven (and I think almost all sects do), are asking you to swollow something scientifically impossible. If you don't buy into miracles you're just out of luck. But what more can be said about the description? Note the part in Mark where it says "and sat down at the right hand of God". If what you had at first was an eyewitness account of a man rising into the sky, is the part I quote also an eyewitness account of Jesus then sitting down next to God while up in Heaven? Does that hint at this writing having been a vision someone experienced rather than an eyewitness acount? It might, I don't know.

A big point of the ascension is that Jesus didn't die (again) and isn't buried anywhere, but that he actually went to heaven with his physical body. This (at least with Catholics) is also what happens with Mary (though I don't think that part is actually in the Bible). It is the belief that Jesus went to heaven physically and didn't die that is the core teaching of the Ascension. The actual description of the event in the Bible can be questioned and speculated on any number of ways. But I'm no theologan or expert, just someone with enough of an idea to write himself into a corner.


Putting Easter in April has to do with the last supper happening on Passover, so the events at the end of Jesus' life can be pinned to the Jewish calendar. IMHO trying to celebrate the exact date isn't the point, the calendar has changed so many ways in 2000 years, but Passover is about in the same part of the calendar year ever year. Christmas was arbitrarily (intentionally) placed near the winter solistice, noone knows what day Jesus was really born.

[lumberjim]

i read a sci fi story once that tied into the star of bethlehem. the main character was the priest on a space ship that discovered a planet/vault near a dead star. the vault was a treasure trove of a dead civilization's art, science, philosophy, etc.....a truly admirable and beautiful people that knew their time was up, and went to the trouble of creating this planet sized time capsule so that their acheivements would not be lost.

The twist was that the star that went supernova and destroyed this beautiful civilization was the one seen to herald the birth of Christ on Earth.

Makes you think that they would be able to figure out the date of his birth based on evidence of some celestial event that would have been observed on earth around that time.

[Griff]

Rod Serling, Binghamtons favorite son, did a Twilight Zone based on that story.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

Makes you think that they would be able to figure out the date of his birth based on evidence of some celestial event that would have been observed on earth around that time.

Well, there are a few options to choose from. In 11 BCE, Halley's Comet rolled through, but that’s probably too early to be the indicator. In 7 BCE, there was a planetary conjunction of Saturn, Venus, and Jupiter. This seems a fairly likely dating for the actual birth. Chinese astrological records hold information about something that was probably either a nova or supernova around that time. It’s extremely difficult to align the dating of those records, but they probably place the event somewhere between 5 BCE and 20 CE. Unlike Comets and planetary orbits, Novas are obviously non-cyclical, so we can’t roll back the astrological clock and see what was going on at that time.

Then there’s always the possibility that they were referring to some non-natural, singular occurrence prepared by God to mark the coming of his son to the earth. It certainly wouldn’t be the most spectacular miracle in the book …


-sm

[jinx]

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

Well, there are a few options to choose from. In 11 BCE, Halley's Comet rolled through, but that’s probably too early to be the indicator. In 7 BCE, there was a planetary conjunction of Saturn, Venus, and Jupiter. This seems a fairly likely dating for the actual birth. Chinese astrological records hold information about something that was probably either a nova or supernova around that time. It’s extremely difficult to align the dating of those records, but they probably place the event somewhere between 5 BCE and 20 CE. Unlike Comets and planetary orbits, Novas are obviously non-cyclical, so we can’t roll back the astrological clock and see what was going on at that time.

Then there’s always the possibility that they were referring to some non-natural, singular occurrence prepared by God to mark the coming of his son to the earth. It certainly wouldn’t be the most spectacular miracle in the book …


-sm

This is where I would apply the principal of parsimony.

[Troubleshooter]

As far as the birth date goes, Sidhe keeps telling me something about the census being taken in the spring or some such. I'll have to ask her this evening when she gets back.

There's a bit more to it but that's her thing, not mine.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

Then there’s always the possibility that they were referring to some non-natural, singular occurrence prepared by God to mark the coming of his son to the earth. It certainly wouldn’t be the most spectacular miracle in the book …


-sm

That didn't even occur to me. I don't mean that to be snide, either. Having read that story, the possibility seemed more plausible than 'magic' to me. Not that I had really made the connection between the star of Bethlehem and a real life stellar occurance. I always just thought of that as a story.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

Having read that story, the possibility seemed more plausible than 'magic' to me. Not that I had really made the connection between the star of Bethlehem and a real life stellar occurance. I always just thought of that as a story.

The thing is, is that if you accept that the preterscientific (God, Jesus, Mohammed, Vishnu, etc) is possible, then it follows that other such occurrances (magic) are possible.

[Bullitt]

Yeah the cencus sounds familiar. If I recall correctly, Mary and Joseph had to travel to Bethlehem to register for the cencus (i am butchering that word i know it) since that was the closest major city to Nazareth and vwala.