Abortion Debate

[smoothmoniker]

Originally Posted by Radar

Nobody on earth has any claim to our bodies but ourselves

Shouldn't that read noTHING, not noBODY?

So, let's do the math on this one

Premise: Nobody has any claim on another person’s body.
Premise: Carrying a fetus to term is an infringement on another person's body

Conclusion: The mother can end the infringement by removing the fetus in any way she deems appropriate.

I think that's a fairly accurate sketch of your argument. You hold premise 1 to be true, and premise 2 can go uncontested, we would all agree with that (certainly anyone whose carried a baby). If both are true, then the conclusion stands. But your first premise, if its an absolute, has some dangerous extensions.

Premise: Nobody has any claim on another person’s body
Premise: Taking care of a 6-month old is an infringement on the time, resources, and strength of the parent, and thus on the actions and fruits of that body

Conclusion: The mother can end the infringement by removing the 6-month old in any way she deems appropriate, including abandoning it on a freeway overpass, or placing it in the oven.

Any reason why the first one is right and the second is wrong? And don't say "because in the second one, it’s a human life” because that's a separate argument - your argument doesn't derive from the humanity of the fetus, but from the infringement on the parent. If your first premise is absolute, then the personhood or non-personhood of the infringement makes no difference.

A FETUS IS NOT A BABY! It's not even a human lifeform. It does not have human life. …

This is not a simplistic view either. It's based in scientific fact.

No, that's not a scientific conclusion, it’s a philosophical conclusion drawn from an interpretation of the "Scientific fact". Science says, "It has no alpha brain waves." Philosophy says, "Alpha brain waves define life." The biggest problem scientists run into is when they presume to take up the task of philosophy under the guise of science.

-sm

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by dar512

Getting your science from the Enquirer again, eh Radar?

Good one.

Originally Posted by garnet

So if a woman gets pregnant by accident (or by carelessness, however you want to look at it) should that mean that she is required to become a human incubator for 9 months for some childless couple?

There are lots of children already available for adoption. They just don't happen to be the right age, the right color, the right background, etc. for most prospective adoptive parents.

There are people out there who desperately want children but for whatever reason can't have their own. And that's really sad. But that has nothing to do with with whether or not a woman should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

You have to live under a rock to not know what causes kids. Yes, IMO (which everyone will probably disagree with, of course) she SHOULD have to be a human incubator. Inconvenience and/or irresponsibility is not an excuse for murder.

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

You've got be kidding me. Have you every tried to adopt a child? There's something on the order of 40 couples waiting for every 1 newborn available for adoption.

-sm

Yup, but if more women had the children that they so carelessly kill, it might be easier to adopt. At least, that's my opinion.


*sigh* And to Radar....too bad HIS mother didn't believe in abortion, huh? Snide remark aside, a fetus is enough of a "person" to have protection from unwanted termination, under the law, so yes, a fetus IS a person, to an extent. Once it has brain waves, I consider it a person. Again, my opinion.


/my opinion


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

It was my birfday yesterday! (Thanks to those people who wished me a Happy Birthday, you know who you are!)


Love you guys....

Happy Birfday Onyx!


Sidhe

[jaguar]

I assume that you are using the term 'sacred' as a synonym for valuable. Are you saying that human life is not sacred (valuable)? If so, then I disagree.

I also find your statement to be a non sequitur. That's like saying, "If you're so worried about the spotted owls, why don't you sell your furniture and help the condors?"

I have no doubt that there are needy children in Africa and elsewhere. That doesn't mean that people can't be concerned about events closer to home, as well.

Whether it is valuable or not is a whole other debate, whether it's percieved to be valuable is more the point. Society as a whole lets people die and depending where you live, kills them with amazing regularity. Heck, 20000 dead on the news is barely going to make the headlines a few days running. Why on earth should women lose legal control of their own bodies to protect the 'sanctity of human life' when clearly we have such little respect for life in general. I think insurance companies put the value of a 30y.o male at around 10k or so.

Ani Difranco put it best, anti-abortion campaigners are like fish that don't know they're wet.

[Radar]

This abortion debate has been much better since I've put together my iggy list. I see lots of non-posts with names of people for whom I have no desire to know what they're saying.

[lookout123]

ah, the infamous, fingers-in-the-ears, lalalalalalala method. good form.

[Happy Monkey]

Ho lee crap. A pending bill in Virginia would force women to report miscarriages to police within 12 hours, and provide as much of the following information as possible:

place of occurrence
usual residence of patient (mother)
full maiden name of patient
medical record number and social security number of patient
Hispanic origin, if any, and race of patient
age of patient
education of patient
sex of fetus
patient married to father
previous deliveries to patient
single or plural delivery and order of plural delivery
date of delivery
date of last normal menses and physician's estimate of gestation
weight of fetus in grams
month of pregnancy care began (sic)
number of prenatal visits
when fetus died
congenital malformations, if any
events of labor and delivery
medical history for this pregnancy
other history for this pregnancy
obstetric procedures and method of delivery
autopsy
medical certification of cause of spontaneous fetal death
signature of attending physician or medical examiner including title, address and date
signed
method of disposal of fetus
signature and address of funeral director or hospital representative
date received by registrar
registrar's signature
registration area and report numbers.

This is all information that a doctor would currently provide to the police (!), but this bill adds the requirement to a woman who doesn't have a doctor's assistance, and gives her half the time to report it that the doctor would have.

[Kitsune]

That looks more like a Lumberjim "New Cellarite Quiz".

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

This is all information that a doctor would currently provide to the police (!), but this bill adds the requirement to a woman who doesn't have a doctor's assistance, and gives her half the time to report it that the doctor would have.

It would be interesting, I think, if there was some way to have our Right Honorable Legislators have to deal with some of the effects or consequences of some of the laws that they pass.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Obviously some of the "Right Honorable Legislators" should have been abortions.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Obviously some of the "Right Honorable Legislators" should have been abortions.

You're saying that they aren't?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Ho lee crap. A pending bill in Virginia would force women to report miscarriages to police within 12 hours, and provide as much of the following information as possible:

place of occurrence
usual residence of patient (mother)
full maiden name of patient
medical record number and social security number of patient
Hispanic origin, if any, and race of patient
age of patient
education of patient
sex of fetus
patient married to father
previous deliveries to patient
single or plural delivery and order of plural delivery
date of delivery
date of last normal menses and physician's estimate of gestation
weight of fetus in grams
month of pregnancy care began (sic)
number of prenatal visits
when fetus died
congenital malformations, if any
events of labor and delivery
medical history for this pregnancy
other history for this pregnancy
obstetric procedures and method of delivery
autopsy
medical certification of cause of spontaneous fetal death
signature of attending physician or medical examiner including title, address and date
signed
method of disposal of fetus
signature and address of funeral director or hospital representative
date received by registrar
registrar's signature
registration area and report numbers.

This is all information that a doctor would currently provide to the police (!), but this bill adds the requirement to a woman who doesn't have a doctor's assistance, and gives her half the time to report it that the doctor would have.

Since a mentrual period could be considered a miscarriage (the egg is evacuated from the body) I would have every woman affected by that law write in every single month.... until they were so overwhelmed they'd overturn it.

dumbasses.

[xoxoxoBruce]

They would just raise taxes to hire enough staff to record and track them. Woe to anyone irregular.

[mrnoodle]

I hope they don't start tracking sperm.

[404Error]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I hope they don't start tracking sperm.

Uh, I believe they already do that, in a round about way. They keep DNA samples from rape victims and take same from convicted sex offenders.