Abortion Debate

[BigV]

This, too, is a Good Thing.

*cough*

Good one, jag.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Brett's Honey

When I was 19, in between relationships, managing a restuarant, working LOTS of hours, I had a brief fling. Working 70 hrs a week and not having sex for the past few months, I had become careless with my pills. By the time I realized I was pregnant, my "fling" was already in a serious relationship and planning marriage with a great lady. Not wanting to cause problems, and not feeling anything like a "parent", I went to my OB-GYN, he confirmed that I was indeed pregnant, and my reaction was "I am not going to have a baby!" He calmly asked if I would like for him to make a recommendation, I said yes, and within two weeks, I was no longer pregnant.

Thanks for the story, BH.
IF...you had been counseled do you think you would have put the baby up for adoption?....or kept it?
Have you thought about how you would have supported yourself when you couldn't work those 70 hours a week due to the pregnancy?

Now that you've had a couple kids you're well aware of how they dominate your life and time. You must be aware how difficult it would be to raise a kid and support you both. Do you think you were ready for that challange at 19?

I think you're in a unique position to tell us these things. I also personally think you've beat yourself up too much over this...let it go and enjoy your son.

[Brett's Honey]

Wow Bruce - you've given me some things to think about. I really do not know what I would have done if I had been counseled, I guess I may even have still had the abortion. I firmly do not believe I was ready for the challenge of motherhood at 19. And maybe I have beat myself up too much over this. Reading that sentence did make me feel better! I know adoption isn't an easy decision either. I have known a couple of girls who have stressed for years after making that decision too.
I think maybe what surprised me most when I thought back to the time when I had the abortion was how easy it was, and I just wasn't sure it should be that easy.
(Maybe I feel guilty now because I didn't feel guilty then...??) When I start feeling guilt about it, I'll start thinking about those questions of yours. Thanks for the support....

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by BigV

What's really important is that it matters to that kid.

I'm reminded of the story about the fella standing on the beach after a big storm. The beach is covered with starfish, and with the sun rising and the tide falling, slow certain death awaits the starfish. So this fella is bending over, picking up a starfish, and chucking it back into the sea, again and again and again. There's another guy, he watches for a while, he sees that there's no way these starfish are going to be saved, and he walks up to the fella and asks:

"Why are you doing this? I doesn't matter what you do, thousands of these starfish are going to die."

The first guy pauses to listen, then returns to his task. He picks up another starfish and wings it back into the sea. He decides to answer the question and says:

"Because it mattered to that one."

Cool story, seriously, and I agree with it.

Originally Posted by BigV

Adopting a child from overseas, or a child that is, for some reason, a less desirable candidate for adoption, is in almost every circumstance, a Good Thing. Or adopting any child. There are exceptions, sometimes horrid, evil exceptions, (no link), but they're far, far rarer that the other end of the spectrum where a family is enlarged by one (or more),

I'm not sure of your point here, but It's getting to the point where it is easier and safer to adopt from a foreign country than to adopt here. Many of the children here are castoff by by their DNA donors because they have habits that have given the child a huge case of baggage to look forward to when they're older. Also the hoops that adopters have to go through, and not all of them are unwarranted, can be arduous, additionally, if you're not a soon-to-be buclear family it can take you out of the running before the gunshot.

Originally Posted by BigV

That's just wrong thinking. Your opinion, sure, whatever. There's a big difference between talk on a college campus about "fixing the problems of those poor people" and action in the form of welcoming a child into one's family. Big difference. Talk's cheap (especially around here), but acting, doing this, I can't imagine the motivation for such a big lifelong, lifechanging event is about "fixing the problems of those poor people".

I see motivations like love for children, family dominating the decision making process. I am not an adoptee, or and adopter, so I can't say from first hand experience. But if I were to adopt, I mean, if we were to adopt a child, it would be because of our love for kids and each other and our family.

The truth of the statement that you can't save the world, or even a part closer to you than a part farther away is **not** sufficient reason to try to save a part you can.

Wrong thinking? Possibly. But the talk I heard on campus in one instance was from a political science instructor as he and his wife went through the motions of adopting a child from China*. That's not hearsay or conjecture. I'm quite willing to bet that they will love and care for the child regardless of their motivations for going outside of the country to get her.

The problems that I see are:

1) the difficulty and capriciousness of the American adoption system
2) the history of the adoptee children or DNA donors (drugs, insanty, usually both)
3) the growing numbers of children with these problems
4) people's unwillingness to help these children

Each of those problems requires a different solution.

* Edit: That fact that it is easier to work with China, and to fly back and forth repeatedly and so on says a lot about problem number one.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Brett's Honey

snip...(Maybe I feel guilty now because I didn't feel guilty then...??) When I start feeling guilt about it, I'll start thinking about those questions of yours. Thanks for the support....

too many people spend their lives on coulda/shoulda/woulda.
Something presents itself to you, make the best decision you can with the information you can get....then live with the results and watch for the next junction. Look ahead not back.
The fallacy of mulling over a decision you made years ago is you are taking it out of the time and place. The situation you were in and your mindset at the time of the choice has everything to do with it.
Let's see now....hmmm, I thought A was a better choice so I chose B. NO, you did what you thought was best at the time therefore it was the right choice for the time.

[Brett's Honey]

More good points Bruce! I think now that I have very possibly been thinking that losing Sheena in such a long, drawn out, painful, way (for her, me, her dad, and brother) that it was my punishment, although I kept insisting that I didn't feel that. I have decided to deal with this in a new way. After all, the kids who are HERE are the only ones who we can make a difference with now, in their lives. From what I've heard the last several months, there are two kids who I may be able to help make a difference with. I have a 17 yr old nephew who has never been acknowledged by my family, and from the problems he's had lately, being accepted by his biological dad's family may help him, according to some of his Mom's family. (The Mom refuses to discuss it). There's also a 20 yr old girl who is most likely my son's half-sister. She has desperately wanted to know who her father is, but her Mom would never let my ex-husband do the testing to find out (after he FINALLY offered, when we lost our daughter). My ex, my son, and I have agreed to do anything that this girl wants to happen - whether it is to do the testing, or just to accept her as family. My son would be her only (half) sibling. If neither of these kids want anything to do with us, we'll just have to understand, but from what I've heard, that's probably not the situation. I'm going to focus my energy on doing whatever is best for these two kids. Hopefully it will affect their adult lives in a positive way.
And this way, maybe I can avoid more of these coulda/shoulda/woulda thoughts concerning these two kids later on in my life. I will just have to approach things delicately, and put their wishes first, of course.
Again - thanks for the support!!!

[OnyxCougar]

When I was 16, I got pregnant. I had the child and gave him up for adoption to my (then) husband's aunt and uncle. I got pregnant again at 18 and went to Vegas for an abortion. (The first husband was very abusive and is now in prison for murder.)

After I was divorced from first husband, I became engaged and ended up getting pregnant again. His mother convinced us now was not the time for a baby, since we were in school and he still lived with her. I had another abortion and there were complications. It was not fun.

Years later, I had an option to go get my son back, and I did so. (Full story in the "Seriousness that changed you" thread in Philosophy.)

So I've been the abortion route, AND I've been the adoption route.

IMO, the adoption route is MUCH harder. I wondered every day how he was doing, what he looked like, what games did he enjoy, I mean, everything an absent parent thinks.

I do have some guilt over the two babies I killed (and I have no illusions that is exactly what I did) but I've learned what Bruce points out - Look Forward, not behind. My guilt about what I did then is now one of my life's lessons.

I tell my children that every action has a consequence, and every choice is your own to make.

I think that abortion SHOULD be a choice, open to all women.

IMO, that little thing *is* a baby. From Conception. Couch it in whatever terms you want, but the fact is, if not killed, a baby comes out. You don't say "I had a fetus today!" or "We're going to have a parasite!" or in the western movies, "She's with zygote!"

MY morals should have nothing to do with anyone else's morals. I don't have to like what another woman is doing, I can only state my opinion and tell my life experiences. But it's still that woman's choice to kill that baby, give it up for adoption, or keep it.

[jaguar]

IMO, that little thing *is* a baby. From Conception. Couch it in whatever terms you want, but the fact is, if not killed, a baby comes out. You don't say "I had a fetus today!" or "We're going to have a parasite!" or in the western movies, "She's with zygote!"

Not so sure about that. I've heard 'unwanted flesh and blood' from one girl and similar stuff from a couple of others that were having abortions.

[OnyxCougar]

Well, again that's my opinion.

Why is it that people change the terms of something to make it sound "more acceptable". I mean, it's ALOT harder to say "Yes, I killed my unborn child" than to say "Yes, I terminated a parasitic relationship." Both mean the same thing, but one sounds less "bad".

[6sickchix]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Why is it that people change the terms of something to make it sound "more acceptable". I mean, it's ALOT harder to say "Yes, I killed my unborn child" than to say "Yes, I terminated a parasitic relationship." Both mean the same thing, but one sounds less "bad".

Actually, though both mean the same thing to you, they don't nec'ly mean the same thing to everyone. So, some people probably use a term you would consider "less 'bad'" because it defines what that individual actually feels she is doing, you know?

Not everyone thinks of an abortion as murdering a baby, so not everyone is going to call it that.

[OnyxCougar]

Yes, they do mean the same thing.

The procedure is exactly the same, regardless of how you couch it in semantics.
The outcome is the same, regardless of what you call it.

[jinx]

The procedure is exactly the same

Forget procedure for a minute, some people don't consider a baby and a fetus to be the same thing. I don't. I had an ultrasound when I was pregnant, I saw a fetus - a potential baby. Everything developed ok from there and I ended up with a baby, instead of losing a fetus at some point, regardless of manner.

[OnyxCougar]

We can't forget the procedure when it's the procedure we're talking about.

[6sickchix]

No, that's your opinion. Of course, people with those opinions tend to think they are absolutely right, so it's not entirely your fault.

[OnyxCougar]

How many times have I stated that I'm giving my opinion? How many times have I posted that it should be a woman's choice?

And I'm very rarely absolutely right. And I don't appreciate the sarcasm.