Koyoto is here

[Wombat]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Ok, I'm joking. But while we're on the subject, why did the last ice age end?

that's a relief

The last ice age ended as a part of a natural cycle. What we are doing is raising the whole cycle up several degrees (at least), in a very short space of time. Normally the cyclical changes are slow enough that we don't notice them in the course of one lifetime, however this change is so rapid that we will suffer.

tw, yes you are right! Sorry if I didn't say what I said clearly. Good point about the north pole ice not changing the sea level, most people don't realise that so it's always worth re-iterating.

This is one of those topics where there are two opposing groups with such inconsistent beliefs that at least one group must be fooling themselves: so which is it? Can we prove/disprove global warming conclusively? (without just waiting to see if we're right/wrong!) And if we can find a conclusive proof one way or the other, will it actually convince everyone or will some people still stubbonly refuse to believe?

[Happy Monkey]

Global warming is happening. The only debate is over the extent of the effect humans have over it.

[russotto]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Ok, I'm joking. But while we're on the subject, why did the last ice age end?

The so-called Little Ice Age in the seventeenth century ended because the temporary reduction in the solar constant associated with the Maunder minimum (a period where very few sunspots were visible).

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Wombat

This is one of those topics where there are two opposing groups with such inconsistent beliefs that at least one group must be fooling themselves: so which is it? Can we prove/disprove global warming conclusively? (without just waiting to see if we're right/wrong!) And if we can find a conclusive proof one way or the other, will it actually convince everyone or will some people still stubbonly refuse to believe?

Once it becomes obvious which side is correct, the other side will join them and will claim that they always held that position.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by russotto

The so-called Little Ice Age in the seventeenth century ended because the temporary reduction in the solar constant associated with the Maunder minimum (a period where very few sunspots were visible).

And which, also, just so happened to be the dawn of the industrial revolution when mankind began to burn a lot of petro-based fuels, starting with coal, and releasing more CO2 into the atmosphere.

Don't get me wrong, many climatologists feel that solar activity does impact the earth's climate. However, man has also now gotten into the act. It's way past time that we finally recognize this point.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

And which, also, just so happened to be the dawn of the industrial revolution when mankind began to burn a lot of petro-based fuels, starting with coal, and releasing more CO2 into the atmosphere.

One thing I'm curious about is a comparison between the amount of greenhouse gas released by some of the bigger volcanic eruptions over the last 300 years and, for example, the total amount of greenhouse gas emitted by every car in America in one weekday. When I have a moment, I'll try to find it and will post the results in case anyone else is interested.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by Beestie

One thing I'm curious about is a comparison between the amount of greenhouse gas released by some of the bigger volcanic eruptions over the last 300 years and, for example, the total amount of greenhouse gas emitted by every car in America in one weekday. When I have a moment, I'll try to find it and will post the results in case anyone else is interested.

And you intend to prove...?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Global warming is happening. The only debate is over the extent of the effect humans have over it.

Tim Barnett of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography even puts that question to bed. Mankind - hands down without a doubt - is the source of the unprecedented near vertical spike in the global warming curves. There is no doubt that humans are the one, only, major source of global warming. The only questions remaining are what parts of human activity are the most destructive.

For example, many previous research studies - from temperature change during the three days of no airplanes after 11 September to measurements of light on the moon during total lunar eclipses - suggest that the world would be significantly warmer if we had not filled the air with so much dirt.

No, there is no doubt that mankind is a slam dunk reason for the sharpest rise in global temperatures. The only remaining question is which activities are doing the most damage.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by tw

--snip--
For example, many previous research studies - from temperature change during the three days of no airplanes after 11 September to measurements of light on the moon during total lunar eclipses - suggest that the world would be significantly warmer if we had not filled the air with so much dirt.--snip--

What?! You're saying dirty air cools the planet?

[tw]

Originally Posted by BigV

What?! You're saying dirty air cools the planet?

And your point, question, or confusion is...?

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by BigV

What?! You're saying dirty air cools the planet?

It blocks out the sun and so the earth cools since solar radiation is reduced.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Not to be confused with polluting of the air with invisible chemicals and gasses.

[Griff]

Time to eliminate all those scrubbers from the coal stacks.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Griff

Time to eliminate all those scrubbers from the coal stacks.

Unfortunately darker and dirtier skies also means less plant growth, less food, less conversions of CO2 to O2, more human disease (ie sharp increase in asthma), etc. Dark material in the atmosphere may have been actually masking symptoms of a problem that is, otherwise, much worse. I forget the exact number, but something like 10% of sunlight is now blocked. Again, no doubt that mankind has caused a massive shift in the earth's atmosphere. George Jr eventually conceded same. But using typical MBA training (or maybe from his experience of not even drilling one successful oil well), he says we cannot do something. Therefore we should not even try. George Jr is typical of MBAs who fear innovation. He is even a quitter. His solution - denial.

Even more amazing: nobody even noticed the lunacy of George Jr's reasoning. Such ostrich thinking does not change facts. A problem exists. Many are so in denial as to stifle the advancement of mankind. The solution to global warming: innovation. Instead George Jr worries about mythical missile attacks and other junk science only for political gain - such as a silly Man on Mars. Science for science reasons: too complex for an MBA and no glory for the politician. The science of global warming and the innovations to solve it: not listed in the political agenda provided by Cheney, Rice, and Wolfovitz. Denials of global warming are not supported by science. That denial comes from politics. Science says global warming does exist AND is created by humans.