10/24/2005: Dog becomes shark bait

[xoxoxoBruce]

The "live dogs make good shark bait" coin has two sides.

Yes it does..... couldn't and shouldn't.
I couldn't and they shouldn't.
Because I say so.
Because dogs are affectionate.
Plants are not affectionate.
I think my first wife was a plant.

[Pearcie (AUS)]

I saw video footage of that same dog with that same hook thru it's nose. Most definitely looked real in the video and I am having a hard time imagining why anyone would create a hoax image of this (tho stranger things have happened) I believe it and am appalled by it.

No animal should be treated in this way - there's just no need for it.

[Sweets]

OMFG I almost didn't want to open up this one, I was scared IW ould see somethign far more graphic and lose my interest in the Cellar. I'm glad I looked though, thanks for not making it the worst of what I was thinking :P

Anyway, This is the most cruel, and inhumane thing I have EVER heard of. Those poor animals. Now, I'm not the type who normally goes on and on about animal cruelty (while I think it is wrong) I never publically state my opinion, but this is just SICK. LIVE DOGS AND CATS?! What is wrong with these people! I just want to cry.

[noviceathome]

It looks to me as though this dog has tried to eat someone's bait, perhaps washed up or discarded on the beach, and ended up with piercings. Probably not too much discomfort after the initial shock and critters adapt quickly to circumstance as evidenced by the earlier victim of a scrap with a porcupine.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

If compassion is a worthy trait of humans then isn't it somewhat false to say: "well, I have compassion for this creature because it is a lot like me, but bugs, well, bugs are kind of a nuisance so I don't really care about bugs. And while we're at it, fish don't really think, I mean scientists have proven that, so it is okay to just kill them. And vegetables can't run away, so they must have been meant to be eaten." etc.

I didn't come close to saying that. I said that I, personally, have an emotional attachment to dogs/cats. I admit that. I, strangely, do not have such an attachment to sharks. I FEAR the sea and all the creatures in it. Fear is not a good base for love. I said I am not bothered by live minnows used for bait and it is because I do not think they have a consciousness--I should have made that clear. What I said is true for me. It's not false at all. I didn't say it was true for everyone, obviously. It's not true for you, or the shark baiters.

[papabell]

Brianna! <Slap><Slap><Slap> Pay attention!

How many times did you use the word "I" in your last post... count them I'll wait.

I got 12, too.

Feet's point is that your values cannot be automatically applied to people of another culture. It isn't about you. It's about life. The reason we are appalled by the thought of pushing a hook through a dog's nose and not a fish's has to do with our point of view.

We were raised to value a dog's life nearly as much as our own. We grow up with dog's as pets and as friends and the feelings are too personal to let us accept this type of treatment. But, fish... yeah they swim on our counters, but they don't cuddle with us... they don't lick our faces. From our point of veiw, a fish's life has less value. Its just something pretty for the counter. It can't fetch a ball or comfort us when we're sad.

So, what is the difference between hooking a minnow and hooking a dog? It's the point of view, values, stemming from personal experiences that decide right and wrong. There is no absolute truth. The sharkbaiters have applied their values, derived from personal experience we know nothing about, to the situation and acted accordingly. Yes, its disgusting, appalling, and wrong - from our point of view.

But the thing feet and noodle are getting at is that this should make us take a closer look at our values. Why has our life experience allowed us to come to the conclusion that it is ok to hook a fish and eat it? Shouldn't we step out of our own experience and come to a conclusion that is right independant of your point of view?

Now for the punch line... None of this matters.

Feet, Noodle, <Slap><Slap><Slap> Pay attention! There is no absolute truth. There is no moral right. No matter where you draw the line someone else draws it two feet to the left. Societal values, then, must be about either concensus or tyranny. I choose concensus becuase many views are more likely to match mine than one is. I say we feed the sharkbaiters to the hammerheads in Vegas. And my point of view must be right, nothing else makes sense...

[mrnoodle]

edit: i didn't read the previous post before posting this....

Originally Posted by dar512

You lost me. Try again.

K. What is it about this image that's so much more appalling than any number of other practices which are just as foreign to western sensibilities (e.g., cannibalism, live sacrifice)?

Originally Posted by dar512

Smaller braincase. Not really self-aware.

You're taking someone's word for that. Grab one and try to ride it and see how aware it is.

Originally Posted by dar512

Don't know about other folks, but I think dogs make better companions than cows. I suspect dogs don't taste as good as cows.

I had a bull that would put its head in my lap from calfhood upwards. I fell asleep while leaning against him more than once. Freaked the city cousins out to have a 1000-lb red bull walk up when called, sit and lay his head in my lap on command.

Didn't eat him, but his offspring tasted great.

Originally Posted by dar512

Ok. This one actually made me think. Assuming that the dogs came from shelters, could not be adopted, and had to be disposed of anyway, then maybe.

You think any of this matters to the dog? I say that people find this picture more distasteful because we've elevated dogs to a higher status than other animals, and that we've done it for kind of selfish reasons.

My mom says that in her part of the world, there was no such thing as dogs in the house. They were considered outside animals, just like horses. The first time she ever saw a dog indoors was on My Three Sons,
and everyone thought it was disgusting to have something that eats its own shit walking around on nice clean carpet. She claims that television is what has brought dogs inside -- that kids who had never considered it before suddenly HAD TO HAVE a house dog because they saw it on TV. I dunno.

Fast forward to today, and watch people eat food with their animals, sleep with them as though they were in a den, walk around with their hair all over their clothes. The same tongue that was licking an asshole 5 seconds ago is slobbering all over your face. We put sweaters on them, name them people names, project human thoughts onto them. Why? Because we want companions to take care of that we can pretend are just little fur-covered people who "love" us as much as we love them. It's a harmless delusion, but a delusion nonetheless. They are affectionate, but they're trained to be so. You can train them to kill also, but they don't feel "hate" when they're doing it.

They're dogs. With dog emotions. We interpret their actions and motives as human, but they're not. Even the Dog Whisperer will tell you that. It's just an animal.

So, that whole rant didn't really have a point, other than this: Just because we've decided that dogs are more special than other animals doesn't make it so. If it's evil to treat a dog that way, it's evil to treat a fish that way.

But if it's not evil to treat a fish that way, then it's not evil to treat a dog that way -- we've just taught ourselves to believe otherwise.

I prefer to live with my delusions, personally. I love dogs (cats, not so much), and I'd rather make a dog happy than a person, most times. But I don't mind calling my delusion what it is, and if an entire subculture was raised to not share my views about dogs, that doesn't make them bad people.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

If you are asking if I believe plants have a nervous system similar to mammals, then no; I didn't miss that much of biology class.

No, I am asking whether you think plants can feel pain. I'm just curious; I do know people who think that plants have some sort of consciousness.

[xoxoxoBruce]

My mom says that in her part of the world, there was no such thing as dogs in the house. They were considered outside animals, just like horses. The first time she ever saw a dog indoors was on My Three Sons, I dunno.

Absolutely, my mother would never allow a dog, cat or any critter in the house. They belonged in the yard or the barn if the weather was bad.
This was the norm, back in the day.

UT puts up the IOtD (thankfully, tip jar at the bottom on the front page) for us to see, contemplate and comment according to our individual sensibilities.
Nobody is wrong........it's how you feel....your take on the picture.
The more views stated the better because it lets us get other perspectives.

btw...I'm right, your wrong. :p

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

No, I am asking whether you think plants can feel pain. I'm just curious; I do know people who think that plants have some sort of consciousness.

I read "The secret life of plants" back in the 70's. A lot of experiments were done with plants being hooked up to polygraph machines as I recall. There was one that stands out in my memory:
Several plants were set up in a room and a series of people walked through the room, one at a time, past the plants. One of the people was instructed to pick a plant at random and tear it out of its pot and rip it to pieces.

Later the people again filed past the plants and when the plant killer came into the room the machines went berserk.

I would like to see that experiment reproduced on NOVA.

I'm not sure what I believe, today when I went out onto my lawn and saw that one of my filthy neighbors let his dog shit on my lawn, you know I was thinking about using him as shark bait, to hell with his dog.

But that's just me being a backsliding buddhist.

[mitheral]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

It looks fake-ish, but (sorry for the graphic nature of the following) it would actually be a pretty effective way to rig a live animal as bait.

I'm not buying the hook thru the lip so the dog could be used as bait. It would be a lot easier to just tie the line to a collar or piece of rope around the dog's neck. This has to be either a horrid publicity stunt or there's some other explanation like noviceathome's.

[capnhowdy]

If it was meant to be disturbing it hit the nail right on the goddam head. Thats for sure.

[darclauz]

i notice cats aren't in this line. i think cats -- more specifically, my husband's cat -- would make a heck of a bait.

shark bait..ooh ha ha.
stuck in my head now....just like a fishhook, or a cat penis.

[Trilby]

um. darclauz. pretty much hate you now.

[capnhowdy]

Someone told me they caught a dude using cats for bait off the coast of Savannah at Tybee island (my hometown) a few years ago. I was told they burnt his ass and rightly so. I personally cannot stand cats but nothing deserves that type of abuse.
I went bass fishing with some other guys two years ago at a local pond. One of them had white mice for bait. Said it was the best bait ever. I promptly left.
Killing is one thing. Sometimes things must die to sustain life.
Terrorism and torture are alltogether different. No matter what lifeform it is.