11/13/2002: Transgender kickboxer

[Undertoad]

To the left there is Parinya Charoenphol. She was a male kickboxer until deciding to go through with a sex-change operation. To the right is Asanee Suwan, who will play her pre-change in a movie to be filmed about her life.

This is interesting to me because the aggression involved in such a sport seems to be very male in origin, very testosterone-based. Physical contact sports always involve a lot of really male stuff - getting deep within your male attitude, finding the inner animal, etc. Eating raw meat, grunting, that sort of thing.

Like the recent South Park where the first girl in the kids' class grows boobs, and the boys turn into aggressive ape-like creatures when they compete for her attention. Oh god that was hilarious.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Undertoad
This is interesting to me because the aggression involved in such a sport seems to be very male in origin, very testosterone-based.

It's *extremely* common for transsexuals who are still struggling with their gender identity to immerse themselves in activities that are decidedly *not* crossgender in an attempt to force themselves to become the person everyone else expects them to be.

There are *scads* of male-to-female transsexuals who have military backgrounds, for example. (I myself have been on active duty with the U.S. Navy in aviation antisubmarine warfare, and earlier was briefly in a US Army ROTC Ranger unit duing my don't-blink-or-you'll-miss-it college career).

Many martial arts are very gender-neutral; aikido comes to mind. But a percussive art like kick-boxing is rather a different thing.

Be that as it may, asian culture is loaded with transgender themes connected with martial arts, all the way from Brigitte Lin Ching-Hsia's role as "Asia the Invincible" in the Hong Kong film "Swordsman" trilogy to the more modern Ranma Nibo-no-ichi of anime fame.

[henry fitch]

It seems like a lot of kickboxing classes in America, or at least classes that are called kickboxing, are geared entirely towards women. Seems like largely a rape-defense thing, plus women have just as much need to stay in shape and get out agression as men do.

Not really relevant to the person in question, just questioning whether kickboxing is necessarily a "male" sport.

[ElPresidente1972]

It's wrong to characterise aggression as "a male thing". Women are just as aggressive as men. If you think ass-kicking is a guy thing, just ask any Argentine for an opinion about Margaret Thatcher.

[philgump]

First:
I have to ask, undertoad did you post this just for shits and giggles?

Second:
Aggression a male thing.....no way.... I know plenty of heterosexal females, that are not transgendered that would whup a guys ass in a New York second. I have this one friend named Charlotte, and I was talking shit about how girls were weak and guys could always beat a girl up. Before I knew what happened she had puched me in the stomach, and knowed me down pinning me in a WWF fasion. Well, I have to say that is aggression!!!

Third:
I LOVED that Southpark episode. I nearly pissed my self with Timmy!

[Undertoad]

Shits and giggles - no, I really do look for stuff that intrigues, and I was really curious about it and mags' answer is instructional. I've been friends with several TS folks as a result of the Cellar - the TS folks have always been interested in virtual communities, for whatever reason.

[philgump]

When I said shits and giggles, I didn't mean to imply you were making fun of them, I meant was the post made just to see what kind of responses would come out of it, as you have seen the last post 'Gay Games' tends to have brought out a great number of opinions.

I was just wondering if it was a stimulate to further conversation on that particular area. i.e. shits and giggle meaning I wonder what response I will get from this post.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Shits and giggles - no, I really do look for stuff that intrigues, and I was really curious about it and mags' answer is instructional. I've been friends with several TS folks as a result of the Cellar - the TS folks have always been interested in virtual communities, for whatever reason.

I think primarily because a lot of us have gotten to know first each other and finally ourselves by that route; we're dispersed enough into the general population that we're much less likely to meet by other means.

That said, there's still some kind of odd unifying thread running though the fields of computing and cryptology having to do with gender roles. It's not at all clear to me that Alan Turing, for example, was actually a homosexual male in the traditional sense as is commonly believed. Even his seminal (pardon the expression) paper <i>Can Machines Think?</i> which first described what later came to be known as "the Turning Test" was originally introduced in the paper as a test of gender identity rather than one of the ability to think.

And yet when Turing was <b>sentenced</b> by the UK government to contragender hormone "therapy" as a punishment for his homosexual behavior; he sank into a deep depression and apparently comitted suicide. I doubt we'll ever know his full story, but it certainly makes me wonder...I'm tantalized by the possibility that he was actually transgendered rather than classically homosexual--a distinction that few people would have been able to draw even at the time of his death.

[Undertoad]

Phil, the general idea behind IotD is supposed to be that the images are "mind-boggling" in some way, but it's really hard to find something absolutely mind-boggling every single day. I do enjoy it when people find an image something they want to talk about, but I'm generally not looking for things specifically to generate discussion.

This week is harder because I'm busy as hell trying to bring in receivables -- while at the same time bedding nine nubile women (see other threads for the basis of this statement).

[philgump]

I run accross the most mind boggling things durning the day. If I find them where should I send them.

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
This is interesting to me because the aggression involved in such a sport seems to be very male in origin, very testosterone-based. Physical contact sports always involve a lot of really male stuff - getting deep within your male attitude, finding the inner animal, etc. Eating raw meat, grunting, that sort of thing.

The question asks for clear associations between testosterone, aggression, male vs female, and other human parameters. Unfortunately these qualities are not mutually exclusive. Venn diagrams have numerous overlapping circles. The best answer can only be found in statistical percentages. And yet I read nothing that addresses or attempts to define those statistics. Therefore I find the discussion associated with the pictures not informative.

We tend to associate testosterone with aggression. But even women have testosterone. That association also fails to note other contributory factors to aggression.

Maybe I do not not fully understanding the question or why it would be interesting. Maybe because I regard such unique characteristics more normal for the cross section of humanity. People are not monolithic - and should not be expected so.

For example, a college friend talked about quitting the field hockey team and losing a scholarship - because she could not stand bed swapping in a mostly lesbian sport. Is that (assuming the details are correct which I also have doubts about) something unique to humanity? Not to me. And not something that I would even try to classify in terms of hormones or childhood upbringing. It is just another typical characteristic of mankind.

[Undertoad]

Phil or anyone who wants to submit an image, hit me in email to undertoad@cellar.org. Attachments are fine. All I ask is that anyone submitting should not be mad at me or the Cellar if I don't use what you send. Also, I try to mention who's submitted something but sometimes I screw up. If I don't use it, put it in Quality Images and put all of the blame on me.

[43% Burnt]

There is a clear link between testosterone and agression.
Men have more testosterone, thus are more agressive.
In addition to this it is more acceptable in our culture for males to express agression physically.
Anyone who has worked on a horse farm for any length of time will have observed that the stallions are FAR more belligerent and agressive than the geldings and mares.

[Cam]

Anyone who has worked on a horse farm for any length of time will have observed that the stallions are FAR more belligerent and agressive than the geldings and mares.

It's the same with cattle, Bulls will fight constantly where cows will very rarely throw it down. Though it isn't that rare of an occurance for two females to fight, they don't fight nearly as often or nearly as hard. Then again I've decided it's more of a hormone thing then a sex thing when it comes to cattle. The male want's to be dominate so he has all the females to himself.