12/17/2002: "Paradise", before and after

Undertoad · 12-17-2002, 03:34 PM

Some older news images, but the queue is light these days, just like I am late in posting today.

The above is a before and after of the Paradise Hotel in Kenya, which was the terrorist attack that happened a few weeks ago targeting Israelis outside of Israel. I thought the item was noteable because it shows a larger attack than was conveyed in the news otherwise - at least from my POV.

Part of it was the low death toll - only 17 killed. From the above photo, that's surprisingly low. I wonder if the terrorists goofed by attacking when people would be specifically away from the hotel.

The entire thing was done by one car bomb. Damn, that's how much one car bomb can do?

MaggieL · 12-17-2002, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad

The entire thing was done by one car bomb. Damn, that's how much one car bomb can do?

You can put a *lot* of explosives in a car.

coliano · 12-17-2002, 08:41 PM

"You can put a *lot* of explosives in a car."

Thats certainly correct; and speaking of explosive power/unit of volume, I really fear what may happen if/when these man portable nuclear devices get into the wrong hands. Didn't a few go missing during the breakup of the USSR?

and well, not to downplay the horriffic destruction that is evident in that photo, but we don't know how much of that was the result of the explosion or how much is due to incineration after the fact. I'd bet that these hodgepodge nitrate based 'explosives' they use have a wildly fluctuating rate of oxidation. I wouldn't be surprised if these bombs had a tendency to ignite unevenly and perhaps create localized conflagrations as often as spectacular explosions.

Also, I'd bet that emergency crews including whatever semblace of a fire department they have in Kenya would be reluctant to approach a bombsite for fear of secondary explosions opting instead to let the place burn.

still, terrible.

damn terrorists

Jacque Strapp · 12-18-2002, 08:20 AM

So they would have been able to pack in even more explosives than a normal passenger car.

Yet another reason to despise the SUV...

That Guy · 12-18-2002, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
Some older news images...

Kinda funny - if you say it fast enough, it comes out, "Smolder news images..."
Nice phrasing.

headsplice · 12-18-2002, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by coliano
Thats certainly correct; and speaking of explosive power/unit of volume, I really fear what may happen if/when these man portable nuclear devices get into the wrong hands.

Are these actually possible? I had always heard that they would simply weigh too much to be feasible, and that was one of the reasons that they hadn't popped up as a terroristic (whether governmental or otherwise) device in the past.

Just curious.

ToastyKen · 12-18-2002, 02:20 PM

I've been under the impression that they exist but that their yields are typically less than Hiroshima, perhaps just a fraction. Still way more destructive than a car bomb, of course.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-18-2002, 03:36 PM

With the "suitcase" nukes the radiation is worse than the blast.

arz · 12-18-2002, 05:42 PM

Tactical warhead yields are typically in the 10's or 100's of kilotons, not megatons as with strategic weapons.

The warheads on tactical nuclear missiles such as the now-retired US Air Force SRAM-A are surprisingly small. You could put one in a large duffel bag, although you probably couldn't get through airport security with it.

The rest of the system to enter the PAL codes or otherwise control the warhead are not very large and don't require a lot of electricity, either.

wolf · 12-18-2002, 06:59 PM

The psychological effect of a even a small nuke adds to the actual damage from the implosion and radiation.

Also, a lot of the weight on a nuke is shielding. If that's removed, it really does fit in a suitcase.

The weight of the hiroshima bomb was approximately 9,000 lbs., most of that casing, "shotgun" assembly, instrumentation and shielding. The weight of the uranium was 200 lbs.

coliano · 12-18-2002, 08:47 PM

yes, they do in exist. (suitcase nukes that is)

I saw a documentary recently that said the United States had produced about 200 of them during the cold war. No pictures were shown so I don't know if they're actually in a suitcase like format, but they refer to them as 'man portable' as in one man. It was also mentioned that a number had been produced by the USSR.

We're probably talking a couple of kilotons here. Not especially powerful, but psychologically devastating and you could get them places where conventional weapons cannot reach.

The documentary I got this from is called 'Trinity and Beyond.' I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the subject. It will frighten you though.

They spend a good deal of time discussing the technical aspects of nuclear devices and how they were developed. From the basic plutonium or uranium all the way to tritium/deuterium doping and the really big thermonuclear bombs. Interesting stuff.

wolf · 12-18-2002, 09:30 PM

Coolness.

I'll have to keep an eye out for that documentary. I'm surprised I don't already have a copy. The Manhattan Project has been an interest of mine since high school. I've got bucketloads of books and videos on the subject. (Richard Rhode's The Making of the Atomic Bomb is the best of the bunch. I also have Dark Sun (on the hydrogen bomb) but haven't started reading that one yet. I'm working my way through his new book on ths SS right now.)

Bitman · 12-18-2002, 10:41 PM

I believe critical mass for plutonium is around 40 Kg. That'll give you the 100 KT boom, but to hit the MT range I think you need a hydogen bomb. But even normal warheads are small enough to toss in a normal SUV and drive around with. I think. Heaven forbid I should do the research.

coliano · 12-18-2002, 11:24 PM

it's okay, us geeks'll do it for ya.

You're pretty much right on. I just checked, it's about 35kg of plutonium oxide crystals or 13kg of plutonium metal for a sphere size of 18cm and 12cm respectively. I don't know how much HE it takes to get the sphere supercritical, but still thats a pretty small package.

Wolf, I had heard about the movie for some time but couldn't find it anywhere. Now you can order it from Amazon or download it from the net. Narrated by William Shatner. There's another good one called 'Broken Arrows - Nuclear 911' narrated by Leonard Nimoy.

wolf · 12-18-2002, 11:58 PM

Thanks for the suggestions

Within reach of my computer I have The 3-D Atomic Bomb Movie (including extra pairs of 3-D Glasses for a special fun-filled evening experience), BIOGRAPHY: Robert J. Oppenheimer, and Enola Gay. I also, somewhere in the video cabinet downstairs have a copy of The Atomic Cafe.

(Obsessed? No, not quite. That would be a term reserved for my devotion to Star Trek (original series only), but I will admit to having a Trinity teeshirt and shot glasses commemorating Little Boy and Fat Man)

12-17-2002, 03:34 PM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	12/17/2002: "Paradise", before and after Some older news images, but the queue is light these days, just like I am late in posting today. The above is a before and after of the Paradise Hotel in Kenya, which was the terrorist attack that happened a few weeks ago targeting Israelis outside of Israel. I thought the item was noteable because it shows a larger attack than was conveyed in the news otherwise - at least from my POV. Part of it was the low death toll - only 17 killed. From the above photo, that's surprisingly low. I wonder if the terrorists goofed by attacking when people would be specifically away from the hotel. The entire thing was done by one car bomb. Damn, that's how much one car bomb can do?

12-17-2002, 08:41 PM	#3
coliano Your last resort. Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA Posts: 10	"You can put a lot of explosives in a car." Thats certainly correct; and speaking of explosive power/unit of volume, I really fear what may happen if/when these man portable nuclear devices get into the wrong hands. Didn't a few go missing during the breakup of the USSR? and well, not to downplay the horriffic destruction that is evident in that photo, but we don't know how much of that was the result of the explosion or how much is due to incineration after the fact. I'd bet that these hodgepodge nitrate based 'explosives' they use have a wildly fluctuating rate of oxidation. I wouldn't be surprised if these bombs had a tendency to ignite unevenly and perhaps create localized conflagrations as often as spectacular explosions. Also, I'd bet that emergency crews including whatever semblace of a fire department they have in Kenya would be reluctant to approach a bombsite for fear of secondary explosions opting instead to let the place burn. still, terrible. damn terrorists __________________ ...maybe next time.

12-18-2002, 08:20 AM	#4
Jacque Strapp Romantic Necromancer Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 29	It was an SUV, if I remember correctly. So they would have been able to pack in even more explosives than a normal passenger car. Yet another reason to despise the SUV... __________________ \|End of Line\|

12-18-2002, 02:20 PM	#7
ToastyKen Profitable Prophet Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 30	I've been under the impression that they exist but that their yields are typically less than Hiroshima, perhaps just a fraction. Still way more destructive than a car bomb, of course. __________________ http://subjunctive.net/

12-18-2002, 05:42 PM	#9
arz Hand-of-Kindness Extender Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: So Cal Posts: 137	Tactical Nukes Tactical warhead yields are typically in the 10's or 100's of kilotons, not megatons as with strategic weapons. The warheads on tactical nuclear missiles such as the now-retired US Air Force SRAM-A are surprisingly small. You could put one in a large duffel bag, although you probably couldn't get through airport security with it. The rest of the system to enter the PAL codes or otherwise control the warhead are not very large and don't require a lot of electricity, either.

12-18-2002, 03:36 PM	#8
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	With the "suitcase" nukes the radiation is worse than the blast.

12-18-2002, 06:59 PM	#10
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	The psychological effect of a even a small nuke adds to the actual damage from the implosion and radiation. Also, a lot of the weight on a nuke is shielding. If that's removed, it really does fit in a suitcase. The weight of the hiroshima bomb was approximately 9,000 lbs., most of that casing, "shotgun" assembly, instrumentation and shielding. The weight of the uranium was 200 lbs. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

12-18-2002, 08:47 PM	#11
coliano Your last resort. Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA Posts: 10	yes, they do in exist. (suitcase nukes that is) I saw a documentary recently that said the United States had produced about 200 of them during the cold war. No pictures were shown so I don't know if they're actually in a suitcase like format, but they refer to them as 'man portable' as in one man. It was also mentioned that a number had been produced by the USSR. We're probably talking a couple of kilotons here. Not especially powerful, but psychologically devastating and you could get them places where conventional weapons cannot reach. The documentary I got this from is called 'Trinity and Beyond.' I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the subject. It will frighten you though. They spend a good deal of time discussing the technical aspects of nuclear devices and how they were developed. From the basic plutonium or uranium all the way to tritium/deuterium doping and the really big thermonuclear bombs. Interesting stuff. __________________ ...maybe next time.

12-18-2002, 09:30 PM	#12
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Coolness. I'll have to keep an eye out for that documentary. I'm surprised I don't already have a copy. The Manhattan Project has been an interest of mine since high school. I've got bucketloads of books and videos on the subject. (Richard Rhode's The Making of the Atomic Bomb is the best of the bunch. I also have Dark Sun (on the hydrogen bomb) but haven't started reading that one yet. I'm working my way through his new book on ths SS right now.) __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

12-18-2002, 10:41 PM	#13
Bitman cellar smellar Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: californy, baby! Posts: 403	I believe critical mass for plutonium is around 40 Kg. That'll give you the 100 KT boom, but to hit the MT range I think you need a hydogen bomb. But even normal warheads are small enough to toss in a normal SUV and drive around with. I think. Heaven forbid I should do the research.

12-18-2002, 11:24 PM	#14
coliano Your last resort. Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA Posts: 10	it's okay, us geeks'll do it for ya. You're pretty much right on. I just checked, it's about 35kg of plutonium oxide crystals or 13kg of plutonium metal for a sphere size of 18cm and 12cm respectively. I don't know how much HE it takes to get the sphere supercritical, but still thats a pretty small package. Wolf, I had heard about the movie for some time but couldn't find it anywhere. Now you can order it from Amazon or download it from the net. Narrated by William Shatner. There's another good one called 'Broken Arrows - Nuclear 911' narrated by Leonard Nimoy. __________________ ...maybe next time.

12-18-2002, 11:58 PM	#15
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Thanks for the suggestions Within reach of my computer I have The 3-D Atomic Bomb Movie (including extra pairs of 3-D Glasses for a special fun-filled evening experience), BIOGRAPHY: Robert J. Oppenheimer, and Enola Gay. I also, somewhere in the video cabinet downstairs have a copy of The Atomic Cafe. (Obsessed? No, not quite. That would be a term reserved for my devotion to Star Trek (original series only), but I will admit to having a Trinity teeshirt and shot glasses commemorating Little Boy and Fat Man) __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

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