The Legislative Branch has no oversight responsibility over the White House.

[BigV]

Hey, TheMercenary--

I have to leave for a while, but please don't go away. You and I disagree completely on this subject, and I want to talk with you about it here in this forum. I'd love to hear your side of the story, your reasoning. Because I do not understand how an otherwise reasonable sounding person can be convinced of some of the postitions you've stated here. But tomorrow for me. Y'all keep on tawkin amongst yourselves, m'kay? But don't drive him off.

[TheMercenary]

Ok now we are finally at the meat of the matter. The ACLU got one judge to stop the wiretaps. This does not make them illegal because it would need to go to the Supreme Court for that final ruling. Only the ACLU, through one judge, said so. Do you follow the appeals of the 9th Circuit Court out on the Left Coast much? Do you know how many of those rulings are overturned?

Your "they" is the ACLU???

So Muller appears on Capitol Hill under fire from the Dems. Ok, no problem there. Mistakes in the issuing of letters by the FBI for information were made. Nothing to do with wire taps there sparky.

The difference is that you are willing to let a few, say 9 or 10, terrorists slip through the cracks because you feel your rights are being violated, even though we have pretty much proven that none of your personal rights have been violated, while I am willing to let the Federal Government snoop around the people they suspect of wrong doing at the chance that a few people may be inconvenienced, and capture the 9 or 10 terrorists.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by BigV

Hey, TheMercenary--

I have to leave for a while, but please don't go away. You and I disagree completely on this subject, and I want to talk with you about it here in this forum. I'd love to hear your side of the story, your reasoning. Because I do not understand how an otherwise reasonable sounding person can be convinced of some of the postitions you've stated here. But tomorrow for me. Y'all keep on tawkin amongst yourselves, m'kay? But don't drive him off.

Nobody will be driving me off skippy.

[TheMercenary]

Oppppssss... I guess they are back in business after all!

US DOJ: Surveillance program now court-approved
NSA wiretapping program to be replaced by a FISA program that requires court approval



By Grant Gross, IDG News Service

January 17, 2007


A controversial surveillance program to wiretap telephone and Internet communications in and out of the U.S. will now fall under the jurisdiction of a U.S. court, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Wednesday.



A judge with the secret U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) on Jan. 10 authorized the U.S. government to wiretap phone or Internet communications involving suspected members of al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations, the DOJ said. The FISA-approved surveillance would replace the Terrorist Surveillance Program at the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), authorized by U.S. President George Bush in 2002 to create wiretaps without court-issued warrants.

The FISA ruling will allow the surveillance program to essentially continue as it has, only with court approval, a senior DOJ official said. Under the NSA program, U.S. agents were allowed to wiretap Internet and telephone communications into and out of the U.S. in which one participant was suspected to be linked to al Qaeda.

Civil liberties groups had protested the NSA program, saying its lack of court oversight violated the U.S. Constitution. The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has filed a lawsuit against AT&T for allegedly participating in the NSA program, and in August, a U.S. district judge in Michigan ruled the NSA program was illegal.

Bush is "committed to using all lawful tools to protect our nation from the terrorist threat," U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales wrote in a Wednesday letter to members of the U.S. Congress. "Although ... the Terrorist Surveillance Program fully complies with the law, the orders the government has obtained will allow the necessary speed and agility while providing substantial advantages," Gonzales wrote.

Bush will not reauthorize the old NSA program when it expires sometime in the next 45 days, the senior DOJ official, who requested anonymity, said Wednesday. But the FISA-authorized program will have the same capability as the old program, the official said.

The FISA court will approve wiretap requests for 90 days at a time, the DOJ official said. The court will have authority to review individual wiretap requests, but the DOJ official declined to provide specific information about how the FISA program will work.

Bush administration officials denied that the FISA court acted to provide political and legal cover for the NSA program, but the DOJ official said the FISA ruling will allow Congress to step back and look at the wiretap program without legal questions hanging over it. The FISA ruling "should take some of the political heat off the debate," the DOJ official said.

The EFF didn't have an immediate comment on the FISA decision.

http://www.infoworld.com/archives/em...pproved_1.html

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Ok now we are finally at the meat of the matter. The ACLU got one judge to stop the wiretaps. This does not make them illegal because it would need to go to the Supreme Court for that final ruling.

No, warrantless wiretaps are inherently illegal. The judge just confirmed it.

So Muller appears on Capitol Hill under fire from the Dems. Ok, no problem there. Mistakes in the issuing of letters by the FBI for information were made. Nothing to do with wire taps there sparky.

I never said it was, as you could discover by reading the paragraph I wrote immediately after the link. They have not confined their illegal activities to wiretaps.

The difference is that you are willing to let a few, say 9 or 10, terrorists slip through the cracks because you feel your rights are being violated,

Nope.

even though we have pretty much proven that none of your personal rights have been violated,

Nope. Nothing of the sort has been proven. It is, however, irrelevant.

while I am willing to let the Federal Government snoop around the people they suspect of wrong doing at the chance that a few people may be inconvenienced, and capture the 9 or 10 terrorists.

Suspicion is enough to negate the need for warrants and subpoenas? Why have warrants and subpoenas at all, then?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

No, warrantless wiretaps are inherently illegal. The judge just confirmed it.
I never said it was, as you could discover by reading the paragraph I wrote immediately after the link. They have not confined their illegal activities to wiretaps.
Nope.
Nope. Nothing of the sort has been proven. It is, however, irrelevant.Suspicion is enough to negate the need for warrants and subpoenas? Why have warrants and subpoenas at all, then?

You need to read the above article. The wiretaps go on. They found away around it. The letters from the FBI are perfectly legal. None of it is irrelevent and you have not been affected. I do suspect that acts have been thwarted, and I may not be able to prove it, I trust that it has.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Oppppssss... I guess they are back in business after all!

US DOJ: Surveillance program now court-approved
NSA wiretapping program to be replaced by a FISA program that requires court approval



By Grant Gross, IDG News Service

January 17, 2007


A controversial surveillance program to wiretap telephone and Internet communications in and out of the U.S. will now fall under the jurisdiction of a U.S. court, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Wednesday.



A judge with the secret U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) on Jan. 10 authorized the U.S. government to wiretap phone or Internet communications involving suspected members of al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations, the DOJ said. The FISA-approved surveillance would replace the Terrorist Surveillance Program at the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), authorized by U.S. President George Bush in 2002 to create wiretaps without court-issued warrants.

The FISA ruling will allow the surveillance program to essentially continue as it has, only with court approval, a senior DOJ official said. Under the NSA program, U.S. agents were allowed to wiretap Internet and telephone communications into and out of the U.S. in which one participant was suspected to be linked to al Qaeda.

Civil liberties groups had protested the NSA program, saying its lack of court oversight violated the U.S. Constitution. The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has filed a lawsuit against AT&T for allegedly participating in the NSA program, and in August, a U.S. district judge in Michigan ruled the NSA program was illegal.

Bush is "committed to using all lawful tools to protect our nation from the terrorist threat," U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales wrote in a Wednesday letter to members of the U.S. Congress. "Although ... the Terrorist Surveillance Program fully complies with the law, the orders the government has obtained will allow the necessary speed and agility while providing substantial advantages," Gonzales wrote.

Bush will not reauthorize the old NSA program when it expires sometime in the next 45 days, the senior DOJ official, who requested anonymity, said Wednesday. But the FISA-authorized program will have the same capability as the old program, the official said.

The FISA court will approve wiretap requests for 90 days at a time, the DOJ official said. The court will have authority to review individual wiretap requests, but the DOJ official declined to provide specific information about how the FISA program will work.

Bush administration officials denied that the FISA court acted to provide political and legal cover for the NSA program, but the DOJ official said the FISA ruling will allow Congress to step back and look at the wiretap program without legal questions hanging over it. The FISA ruling "should take some of the political heat off the debate," the DOJ official said.

The EFF didn't have an immediate comment on the FISA decision.

http://www.infoworld.com/archives/em...pproved_1.html

It's not perfect, but it's better. The court ought to have the obligation, not the authority, to review requests. Hopefully it's sloppy reporting.

[TheMercenary]

And the beat goes on....

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It's not perfect, but it's better. The court ought to have the obligation, not the authority, to review requests. Hopefully it's sloppy reporting.

Actually, from the article I'm not clear if the judge just hasn't given blanket approval, such as "I approve of you wiretapping anyone you think is a terrorist".

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by richlevy

Actually, from the article I'm not clear if the judge just hasn't given blanket approval, such as "I approve of you wiretapping anyone you think is a terrorist".

That is how I read it. The difference being that it is for 90 days and the agency just needs to come back and reapply.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

do you not understand?" What part of 9/11 do you not understand? What part of terrorism do you not understand? Exactly how often have you traveled to parts of the world where your life is in danger because you are an American before 9/11?

The only reason Americans were in danger is because the president had the same grasp and intelligence you are posting. Good Americans know of the so many FBI investigations quashed by the George Jr administration - in AZ, MN, IL, NY, and the international one lead by O'Neill. All were quashed by people who knew no such threat existed. Why does TheMercenary deny this? He had a political objective that also advocates Nazi like "Where are your papers".

Meanwhile Maine, Wyoming, and (forgot the third state) have passed laws in rebellion to what TheMercenary now requires.

Whether you drive or not, you must have these papers. No access to airlines, government offices, etc without these new mandated papers. Is an officer stops you one the street and you don't have your papers, then the office can take you in for an identity check. This is the new laws now being instituted because THEY see enemies everywhere ... just like TheMercenary.

Four separate FBI investigations on the trail of 11 September actors were quashed by the George Jr administration. That's not conspiracy. That's published facts.

And the Chicago agents were not told to stop investigating. They were yelled at, "You will not open an investigation." Both agents waited to retire before they would take interviews on how their investigation was terminated.

Meanwhile TheMercenary calls this a conspiracy theory only because it exposes his political agenda as Nazi like "Where are your papers" mentality. Those threats only exist in his fears.

BTW, did you know that horse you were riding was not real? Just asking because of your love for George Jr.

[tw]

Wiretapping without judicial review is illegal. And that is what was happening startig when the Attorney General that advocates torture also fears all these mythcal terrrorists. Why is he there? Notice the denials from another that fears - TheMercenary. No wonder he so likes the same things that Dick Cheney advocates including more Executive powers and freedom to kidnap anyone anywhere in the world.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

The only reason Americans were in danger is because the president had the same grasp and intelligence you are posting. Good Americans know of the so many FBI investigations quashed by the George Jr administration - in AZ, MN, IL, NY, and the international one lead by O'Neill. All were quashed by people who knew no such threat existed. Why does TheMercenary deny this? He had a political objective that also advocates Nazi like "Where are your papers".

Meanwhile Maine, Wyoming, and (forgot the third state) have passed laws in rebellion to what TheMercenary now requires.

Whether you drive or not, you must have these papers. No access to airlines, government offices, etc without these new mandated papers. Is an officer stops you one the street and you don't have your papers, then the office can take you in for an identity check. This is the new laws now being instituted because THEY see enemies everywhere ... just like TheMercenary.

Four separate FBI investigations on the trail of 11 September actors were quashed by the George Jr administration. That's not conspiracy. That's published facts.

And the Chicago agents were not told to stop investigating. They were yelled at, "You will not open an investigation." Both agents waited to retire before they would take interviews on how their investigation was terminated.

Meanwhile TheMercenary calls this a conspiracy theory only because it exposes his political agenda as Nazi like "Where are your papers" mentality. Those threats only exist in his fears.

BTW, did you know that horse you were riding was not real? Just asking because of your love for George Jr.

What bullshit. You really need to stop getting your news from PrisonPlanet.com or AntiWar.com. Get off your conspiracy horse and come back to reality. Now show me your papers!

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

Wiretapping without judicial review is illegal. And that is what was happening startig when the Attorney General that advocates torture also fears all these mythcal terrrorists. Why is he there? Notice the denials from another that fears - TheMercenary. No wonder he so likes the same things that Dick Cheney advocates including more Executive powers and freedom to kidnap anyone anywhere in the world.

I think you are an illegal alien. So since I think that your opinion of what goes on in this country is mute.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

It is most rellevent because it is not happening you. It is happening to others who are under suspicion . What is rellevent is that you are not and have not been affected. Have you? But you fear it. The big bad brother is coming after you and your terrorist friends right??? I doubt it. The point is you are not and have not been affected by any of this. You are drinking way to much of the electric kool aid. Go back to water. Your fears are unfounded.

Please read what you've written as if it is 1933.

The reason it is different from 1933 is that people are willing to stand up for everybodies' rights, not just their own. The Bush administration got in the fear business after 911 and started to roll back Constitutionaly protected rights. They are being stopped. If you are still scared, get a dog.