Pakistan

ZenGum · 03-30-2009, 06:47 AM

We need a thread about Pakistan. There are probably some old ones, but they're dormant, so I thought I'd start a fresh one.

Why should we care about Pakistan?
Pakistan is probably more important than Iraq or Afghanistan. It's population exceeds the other two combined. They have nuclear weapons and an army that obeys the political government only when it feels like it. They have a history of political instability, corruption and violence. A significant portion of the country is not under the control of the central government, and in many cases, is held and run by Taliban-like Islamists. It's right next door to Afghanistan.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people who are very active in support of civil justice and rights, who will protest loudly sometimes effectively, and they do have elections from time to time. And I have a friend from there, and he is cool.

More recently, Pakistan was probably a staging point for the mass shootings in India, and saw a team of gunmen attack the visiting Sri Lankan cricket team. Very recently, a police academy in Lahore was stormed by a small group of fighters and held for about 8 hours.

This (Northern) spring is looking "interesting" in Afghanistan. It is expected that the coalition will step up efforts do drive their enemies out of the mountain strongholds. My worry is that this will simply drive them, at best, into other places in Afghanistan or, much worse, into Pakistan. This would destabilize Pakistan further. Do we interfere inside Pakistan?

So I thought I would start a thread about Pakistan, and we can update and discuss as things happen.

DanaC · 03-30-2009, 07:00 AM

Fascinating place, Pakistan. As is Kashmir. Lot of Kashmiris in my borough.

Even more than India, Pakistan is contradiction incarnate. Their gender politics are bizarre. Outlying traditional villages might be marrying off their daughters at 9, but the middle class Pakistani women are a completely different kettle of fish.

TheMercenary · 03-30-2009, 07:04 AM

Great thread. And an important issue. I think we need to be very careful in our intervention in Pakistan. We are pushing the issue already with the missle attacks in the un-governed areas along the border, but I believe that is an acceptable risk. You really can't discuss Pakistan with out discussing Afghanistan in the issue. The ISI has supported the Taliban for years. And the problem most people have is separating the Taliban from al-Qaida. And it seems like the government, first Bush, now Obama, have no interest in ensuring that the public understand the difference. As you stated pouring more US troops into Afghanistan and increasing operations there has the potential for creating more problems in Pakistan, an already fragile government. I fear that Afghanistan will become a bigger quagmire than Iraq ever was, and so far history has proven that notion to be correct.

For some light reading on the subject and from a historical position there are some good reads here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/fs/search...words=Pakistan

sugarpop · 03-30-2009, 08:31 PM

I saw an interview with Jehan Al Sadat with Rachel Maddow last week. She was married to Egyptian president Anwar Sadat. She spoke about Pakistan. According to her, almost all the middle eastern terrorist groups work out of Pakistan. She believes peace is possible though. Egypt was the first Muslim country to sign a peace treaty with Israel, and it is still in effect to this day. You can catch the interview here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#29905028

I believe Pakistan is more important than Afghanistan for the stability of the region, but it is hard to separate those two countries when we talk about this. Clearly we will need to work in concert with the government of Pakistan. We cannot afford a war with them. We will never win over the people of those countries though if just continue to occupy the countries over there. That was their beef with us in the first place (well one of them anyway). We need to rethink our strageties.

I was dismayed when Obama announced he would be sending more troops to Afghanistan. Since we ARE planning on spending money there to build things though, I reeeeally hope they use the local population for as many jobs as they are qualified for, because that would go a long way toward creating good will. If we just bring in Americans, that won't help.

Same goes for Pakistan. I think a lot of the people don't support al qaeda or the Taliban, but they don't support us either, so they are choosing the (to them) lesser of two evils when they support terrorist or extremist groups. In order to turn that around, we need to be their partners, not their dictators.

piercehawkeye45 · 03-31-2009, 12:03 AM

Pakistan will most likely be, if not is, a failed state soon. Once that happens, Pakistan will need to be the number one priority in the region.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-31-2009, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zen Gum

snip~ And I have a friend from there, and he is cool.~snip

No no, he's a terrorist... kill him now.

The radical Islamists that are trying to minimize, if not usurp, the elected government of Pakistan derives major funding from the afghan poppy crops. They operate like the mafia making it impossible for the Afghan peasants to survive without growing poppies for the Taliban.

The central Afghan government has never controlled the country, because the power belongs to the tribal chiefs who have never bowed to the Afghan government or any foreign government.

If General Petraeus is given the tools and support, I believe his counter insurgency tactics of providing security for the peasants and doling out authority to tribal chiefs that help, can gain the cooperation of the Afghan people in defeating the Taliban and depriving them of that major funding.

I feel this is the best way to help the moderate Pakistanis regain and retain control of their country

sugarpop · 03-31-2009, 06:58 AM

Maybe WE could start paying farmers for the poppy growing. We do it with other countries. That is where a lot of our painkillers come from.

piercehawkeye45 · 03-31-2009, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Maybe WE could start paying farmers for the poppy growing.

I thought we do...

At least pay for the final product.

sugarpop · 03-31-2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I thought we do...

At least pay for the final product.

We do with other countries, but I don't believe we do in Afghanistan. I could be wrong though.

DanaC · 03-31-2009, 08:16 AM

The answer's been staring us in the face. The USA needs to become a producer of poppies and exporter of heroin. That'd fuck the Afghan poppy trade once and for all.

tw · 03-31-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

The answer's been staring us in the face. The USA needs to become a producer of poppies and exporter of heroin. That'd fuck the Afghan poppy trade once and for all.

Cannot happen. The farmers are too busy screwing the oil producing nations by growing ethanol.

ZenGum · 03-31-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No no, he's a terrorist... kill him now.

Worse, he's a post-modernist. I tried to argue some sense into him, but failed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

The answer's been staring us in the face. The USA needs to become a producer of poppies and exporter of heroin. That'd fuck the Afghan poppy trade once and for all.

I like your lateral thinking. Australia grows some poppies, maybe we could expand.
And the USA could take the pressure of Mexico et al by becoming self-sufficient in cocaine.
To hell with energy security, food security, how about some DRUG security???

sugarpop · 03-31-2009, 09:30 PM

yea Zen, we are on the verge of a serious drug war here because of Mexican drug cartel violence spilling over into the border states. We have been so worried about Iraq for the past 6 years we have completely ignored our own borders. Yet another reason why I think all drugs should be legalized and controlled, except for plants, which should just be legal, because they're, you know, plants.

classicman · 03-31-2009, 10:28 PM

Even the Opium poppy?

xoxoxoBruce · 04-01-2009, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenGum

We need a thread about Pakistan.

But instead we have a poppy thread.

03-30-2009, 06:47 AM	#1
ZenGum Doctor Wtf Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Badelaide, Baustralia Posts: 12,861	Pakistan We need a thread about Pakistan. There are probably some old ones, but they're dormant, so I thought I'd start a fresh one. Why should we care about Pakistan? Pakistan is probably more important than Iraq or Afghanistan. It's population exceeds the other two combined. They have nuclear weapons and an army that obeys the political government only when it feels like it. They have a history of political instability, corruption and violence. A significant portion of the country is not under the control of the central government, and in many cases, is held and run by Taliban-like Islamists. It's right next door to Afghanistan. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who are very active in support of civil justice and rights, who will protest loudly sometimes effectively, and they do have elections from time to time. And I have a friend from there, and he is cool. More recently, Pakistan was probably a staging point for the mass shootings in India, and saw a team of gunmen attack the visiting Sri Lankan cricket team. Very recently, a police academy in Lahore was stormed by a small group of fighters and held for about 8 hours. This (Northern) spring is looking "interesting" in Afghanistan. It is expected that the coalition will step up efforts do drive their enemies out of the mountain strongholds. My worry is that this will simply drive them, at best, into other places in Afghanistan or, much worse, into Pakistan. This would destabilize Pakistan further. Do we interfere inside Pakistan? So I thought I would start a thread about Pakistan, and we can update and discuss as things happen. __________________ Shut up and hug. MoreThanPretty, Nov 5, 2008. Just because I'm nominally polite, does not make me a pussy. Sundae Girl.

03-30-2009, 07:04 AM	#3
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	Great thread. And an important issue. I think we need to be very careful in our intervention in Pakistan. We are pushing the issue already with the missle attacks in the un-governed areas along the border, but I believe that is an acceptable risk. You really can't discuss Pakistan with out discussing Afghanistan in the issue. The ISI has supported the Taliban for years. And the problem most people have is separating the Taliban from al-Qaida. And it seems like the government, first Bush, now Obama, have no interest in ensuring that the public understand the difference. As you stated pouring more US troops into Afghanistan and increasing operations there has the potential for creating more problems in Pakistan, an already fragile government. I fear that Afghanistan will become a bigger quagmire than Iraq ever was, and so far history has proven that notion to be correct. For some light reading on the subject and from a historical position there are some good reads here: http://www.theatlantic.com/fs/search...words=Pakistan __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012! Last edited by TheMercenary; 03-30-2009 at 07:24 AM.

03-31-2009, 12:03 AM	#5
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Pakistan will most likely be, if not is, a failed state soon. Once that happens, Pakistan will need to be the number one priority in the region. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

03-31-2009, 10:28 PM	#14
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Even the Opium poppy? __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

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03-30-2009, 07:00 AM	#2
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Fascinating place, Pakistan. As is Kashmir. Lot of Kashmiris in my borough. Even more than India, Pakistan is contradiction incarnate. Their gender politics are bizarre. Outlying traditional villages might be marrying off their daughters at 9, but the middle class Pakistani women are a completely different kettle of fish.

03-30-2009, 08:31 PM	#4
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	I saw an interview with Jehan Al Sadat with Rachel Maddow last week. She was married to Egyptian president Anwar Sadat. She spoke about Pakistan. According to her, almost all the middle eastern terrorist groups work out of Pakistan. She believes peace is possible though. Egypt was the first Muslim country to sign a peace treaty with Israel, and it is still in effect to this day. You can catch the interview here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#29905028 I believe Pakistan is more important than Afghanistan for the stability of the region, but it is hard to separate those two countries when we talk about this. Clearly we will need to work in concert with the government of Pakistan. We cannot afford a war with them. We will never win over the people of those countries though if just continue to occupy the countries over there. That was their beef with us in the first place (well one of them anyway). We need to rethink our strageties. I was dismayed when Obama announced he would be sending more troops to Afghanistan. Since we ARE planning on spending money there to build things though, I reeeeally hope they use the local population for as many jobs as they are qualified for, because that would go a long way toward creating good will. If we just bring in Americans, that won't help. Same goes for Pakistan. I think a lot of the people don't support al qaeda or the Taliban, but they don't support us either, so they are choosing the (to them) lesser of two evils when they support terrorist or extremist groups. In order to turn that around, we need to be their partners, not their dictators.

03-31-2009, 06:58 AM	#7
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	Maybe WE could start paying farmers for the poppy growing. We do it with other countries. That is where a lot of our painkillers come from.

03-31-2009, 08:16 AM	#10
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	The answer's been staring us in the face. The USA needs to become a producer of poppies and exporter of heroin. That'd fuck the Afghan poppy trade once and for all.

03-31-2009, 09:30 PM	#13
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	yea Zen, we are on the verge of a serious drug war here because of Mexican drug cartel violence spilling over into the border states. We have been so worried about Iraq for the past 6 years we have completely ignored our own borders. Yet another reason why I think all drugs should be legalized and controlled, except for plants, which should just be legal, because they're, you know, plants.

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