Impeding changes to our Health Care system

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

For the partisan right, the debate must now not be about what is actually proposed. That would clarify it, and thus make it less scary, and pinpoint the debate to the proper points. But the White House has overestimated its ability to manage the message and manage the issue. They should stop now before the muck gets too deep, agree that the public needs more time to digest, scrap the House bill and put together an Obama bill that is short and precise and can be more easily argued about.

But i was really looking forward to the death panels!

[Shawnee123]

Palin's such a drama queen. But she luuuuuuuuuuuurves her country.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I must say we're all fascinated over here with this debate. British officials and diplomatic staff are walking a very fine line between countering the blatant lies without actually getting involved in your debate.

There is no doubt that what is being proposed here is not a NHS style plan. Yet. But what is being proposed and potentially voted on is a government run plan that will be potentially cheaper to run than many employer sponsored plans, and until we know what those costs actually will be we shouldn't be voting on them. How we will be charged and where the money will come from is not specifically dictated in the House Bill. That will come from a different committee. There is a potential, in the way the plan is being crafted, that millions more people will be shuffled to the plan unexpectedly and it is not being designed for that. There are too many holes at this point and must not allow the Demoncratic majority to Rahm it through for political points and political reasons.

[TheMercenary]

On a lighter note. Watch the video. Death Panel.

http://gawker.com/5334690/the-daily-...h-panel-debate

[morethanpretty]

For some clarification on the rumors check www.factcheck.org.

Here is one article I found useful:
http://factcheck.org/2009/08/seven-f...t-health-care/

and another good one on politifact.com
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-explanation/

[Kitsune]

Time for some historical perspective.

[Griff]

Does anyone have a thought about the psycho-social impact of a single-payer plan. On one hand a single-payer plan could free up a lot people who right now are afraid to move or start their own businesses because they can't afford to leave their employer based health care. The other side would be that people missuse programs they are not paying for. As it stands now though people are already missusing ERs getting care in a really ineffective way. I'm thinking it would be a net positive for American society to cover everyone. I don't think any abuse of the system will be worse than the present suppression of potential. thoughts?

other issues
When they eventually spell out the actual plan, I wonder if it won't turn into a permanent source of income for insurance companies. The present system is paperwork heavy and seems to defy the concept of insurance, something I've always thought of as a way to spread pain in the face of disaster...

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Time for some historical perspective.

Interesting Kit and along the same lines I stumbled upon this.

Someone's opinion I may or maynot agree with.http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=389x6296630

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Interesting Kit and along the same lines I stumbled upon this.

I've been listening to both sides of this for weeks in the hopes that I would find what strange cultural facet of America makes this so different from other countries. But, I still don't get it. Someone, I'm hoping, will explain this all to me, someday, and tell me why universal heathcare brings about such frothing rage and anger over lost freedoms when the changes and laws passed over the past eight years involving indefinite detainment, domestic wiretapping, and the unchecked hemorrhaging of billions of dollars into various military contract black holes to fight a vague concept, The War on Terror. Why weren't the talking heads on AM radio spitting pissed at the use, loss, and theft of their tax dollars then? And I get the libertarian ideals being promoted in this argument, that my money should not go to help someone else involuntarily, but why is this debate the one bringing out all the extremists and not the other tens of thousands of services the government provides with taxpayer money?

We have strange ideals, these days.

I'm annoyed that we are the only westernized country that can't get seem to ever get universal healthcare correct, but I'm even more frightened at the response to it that my fellow citizens are displaying that seems to be a protest against aid to those that need it and a position that seems to lean towards the "fuck you if you can't afford it" style of healthcare. In an incredible show of irony, a large percentage of the people at the town hall protests are elderly and hold a sign declaring our country is heading down the path of nazi-esque socialism as they verbally issue their concerns about what will happen to their Medicaid/Medicare if UHC is implemented.

Really, is this what we've come to? That we are willing to hand over billions of dollars and much of our freedoms, virtually unquestioned, to our military and intelligence agencies in the name of protecting American lives but how dare we try spend a tiny fraction of that amount to fund healthcare for those that can't afford it in the name of, uh...protecting American lives?

[Shawnee123]

[skysidhe]

Well kit I hear what you're saying but I cannot say I have been listening to it much. In fact ever since Bush was made president the first time I've been apathetic. This hate though reverberates through my layers of apathy. Even my beloved sister thinks we are going the socialist route. So I find a page that says out loud what my core beliefs are. I am reading it and agree. I think then maybe it's time to pay attention so I posted that link.

My gut instinct is to give health care to all but I need to read more first because I have only just began to pay attention. I have the white house’s fact sheet on health care reform and not because I am taking one source of information as gods truth. It is just a starting point for me.

So I can't say anything insightful or say anything with any kind of understanding because I don't really know what's going on here.
When I try to watch a little of the news, like this morning on Meet the Press all I see is everyone contradicting everyone else.

I do in my heart think we should go for it. I think if other countries can provide medical care so can we and why not adopt THOSE models?

I think people are seeing the devil in the details but I don't understand this. If we are bombing and invading countries we are patriotic. If we want to modernize a system we are socialists.

[morethanpretty]

To me it looks like Health Care reform has lost and stupid has won.
People have swallowed hook line and sinker of fear mongering about death panels, regulated care (it already is idiots!), outlawing private care ect, ect.
See post #500 SD.

Call me pessimistic, but I think its too late and this measure of improvement has been lost to all the lies, ignorance and outright stupidity.

[Undertoad]

but how dare we try spend a tiny fraction of that amount to fund healthcare for those that can't afford it

Oh it's no tiny fraction. NOT AT ALL.

The House bill starts at 1 Trillion. To put that in perspective, the entire health care spending for *everybody*, public and private, is about 2.5 Trillion. And some people think the actual cost of the House bill is 1.6 Trillion... at this level the accounting gets messy, you know...

And so far, every health care approach we've ever enacted in this country has blown its budget to smithereens. The original 1965 warning on Medicare was that, unimaginably, its costs could someday rise to 3 billion dollars. Today it's about $300 Billion and roughly 14% of the entire US Gov budget.

We can't live with another one like that. This is why the cost-cutting part of the plan has to be in the biggest and boldest print. So far it has been the weakest part.

[Griff]

Danger sloppy writing ahead. I think the absurd over-reaction may push the center to the left on this. We do need to remember that a lot of this is payback for the Bush abuse we haters engaged in. It would be helpful if the left acted like adults if they want to get health care legislation done.

The anti crowd is pushing on multiple issues, I wonder how much organized crossover there is. My brother bought a box of ammo for his rifle in Connecticut and recently got a call from some outfit trying to get a rise out of him cuz Obama's taking our guns! I think it is interesting that his personal information was taken from the purchase and given to some organization claiming to be protecting individual rights.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

To me it looks like Health Care reform has lost and stupid has one.

I just found that typo rather amusing amidst all the insanity this issue has caused.

As you were.