The Roads Must Roll!

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Q: How to roll the roads better?

Q2: Think roads, and for that matter passenger rail, are necessarily and of right the purview of the State, and the Federal? Or is that just habit?

John Stossel

Roads are one example that I'll cover on my TV show this week. Politicians call road management a "public good" that "government must control." Nonsense.

In 1995, a private road company added two lanes in the middle of California Highway 91, right where the median strip used to be. It then used "congestion pricing" to let some drivers pay to speed past rush-hour traffic. Using the principles of supply and demand, road operators charge higher tolls at times of day when demand is high. That encourages those who are most in a hurry to pay for what they need. It was the first time anywhere in the world that congestion pricing was used. Bureaucrats were skeptical. Now congestion pricing is a hot idea for both private and public road-management systems.

A Libertarian forum turned me on to this. Freesteader.com

[Lamplighter]

I'm not at all sure Highway 91 is the best example to make your point...

The 10 miles of toll expressway have now been bought out by the Orange County Transit Authority because private ownership caused so many trouble.

Corridor Watch article

A limited partnership was formed to lease the right-of-way for $1 per year, build and operate the toll road lanes. The California Private Transportation Company (CPTC) was granted a 35-year franchise in 1990. Robert Poole a private-public partnership advocate and director of the Reason Foundation transportation studies worked on the creation of SR 91. The highway opened in December 1995 and was operated by CPTC for seven years.
Initially the toll lanes were seen to benefit the public, but that perception ended when a non-compete clause in their contract barred public transportation agencies from increasing highway capacity on other roads within one-and-one-half-miles of SR91. Increasing traffic congestion and the inability to enhance nearby highway capacity reversed the positive public opinion about the private road lanes.

LA Times article from 2002:

The Express Lanes created such a political nightmare that the Orange County Transportation Authority wants to buy the project and put it into the public's hands. Three other toll roads in the county are struggling with lower-than-expected revenue. A fifth proposed tollway in Orange County and another in the Bay Area have been stalled by political opposition and financial problems.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

. . . but that perception ended when a non-compete clause in their contract barred public transportation agencies from increasing highway capacity on other roads within one-and-one-half-miles of SR91.

It would seem this is the source of the problem: a mismade rule. This is the kind of thing that has often gotten in the way of a commonsense remedy.

[Lamplighter]

I might be able to agree in this particular instance, but private businesses are rarely willing to compete with governmental entities on an even footing, so non-compete clauses abound in contracts.
Even physicians bemoan the patients that are "pulled out of their practices" by the same medical school and hospital where they received their own training !

Also, $1 / year for the right of way on the median was a major governmental give-away after doing all the prior bonding, development, engineering, land procurement and basic construction of the existing freeways. If a Libertarian principle is to hold true, that private enterprise would have had to do all that work at it's own expense.

All this is beside the point of toll-roads and congestion-pricing.
Toll roads are not new, but private ownership certainly is.
Sports stadiums are good examples of how the public can be beaten up for the benefit of private owners.

[HungLikeJesus]

There were lots of early privately-owned toll roads in the US; see for example http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/K...wski.Turnpikes.

The first private turnpike in the United States was chartered by Pennsylvania in 1792 and opened two years later. Spanning 62 miles between Philadelphia and Lancaster, it quickly attracted the attention of merchants in other states, who recognized its potential to direct commerce away from their regions.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

All this is beside the point of toll-roads and congestion-pricing.

Seems to me, the people who have a choice of when to travel, would be more reticent of gridlock than a $1 toll.

[Lamplighter]

I took this thread to be about a more a "Libertarian" way of doing things.
That is, private ownership of roads and not so much a debate about toll roads and congestion pricing.
But so far as fees go...

On the 10-mile stretch on Hwy 91, current tolls range from $1.30 - $9.80.
It also has a minimum fine of $341 for not having sufficient funds in your account to cover your tolls.
Even banks don't charge overdraft fees that high...

So what does "Congestion pricing" mean... it means that as the prices go higher it tends to push "excess" vehicles OFF the toll way and back on to regular roads. That is, the effect is to artificially increase and perpetuate even more congestion on the non-toll roads.

This is opposed to charging the same fee all the time which would have the effect of always diluting the congestion and increasing traffic on the express (toll) portions of road, up to the point where market forces would level off the traffic volumes.

Granted some people have more $ than they need so fees vs time won't matter to them.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus

There were lots of early privately-owned toll roads in the US; see for example http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/K...wski.Turnpikes.

Unfortunately, Oregon does not seem to have made it into your linked article.

But in terms of absolute safety and necessity, and in reference to UG's OP about "Libertarian" values,
the Barlow Trail is prized because it was so important to the settling of the Oregon Territory.
It ran from The Dalles around the south side of Mt Hood to Oregon City
The Barlow Road, built by Sam Barlow in 1846 with governmental approval, was entirely paid for by private money ($4,000), labor, and enterprise.
Tolls were about $5 / wagon and often paid with cattle, chickens, etc.
Barlow was licensed to collect tolls for only 2 years.

On a completely personal note, our family drives this same route frequently on picnics and fishing trips to the nearby rivers.
Even today it is almost impossible for us to believe they were able to find their way thru these forests and to build a wagon trail using the tools of their day.

WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE

Before the opening of the Barlow Road, pioneers traveling by land from the east followed the Oregon Trail to Wascopam Mission (now The Dalles) and floated down the Columbia River to Fort Vancouver, then a perilous and expensive journey. It was also possible to drive livestock over Lolo Pass on the north side of Mount Hood, but that trail was too rugged for vehicles and so unsuitable for wagons.

[Undertoad]

You have died of dysentery.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

I deny your diagnosis and defy the diagnosticator!!

[Shawnee123]

If I cut the tags off this thread will I be subject to prosecution?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You have died of dysentery.

For years, I thought the name of that game was Organ Trail. Because everyone got sick on it, clearly.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Unfortunately, Oregon does not seem to have made it into your linked article.

But in terms of absolute safety and necessity, and in reference to UG's OP about "Libertarian" values,
the Barlow Trail is prized because it was so important to the settling of the Oregon Territory.
It ran from The Dalles around the south side of Mt Hood to Oregon City
The Barlow Road, built by Sam Barlow in 1846 with governmental approval, was entirely paid for by private money ($4,000), labor, and enterprise.
Tolls were about $5 / wagon and often paid with cattle, chickens, etc.
Barlow was licensed to collect tolls for only 2 years.

On a completely personal note, our family drives this same route frequently on picnics and fishing trips to the nearby rivers.
Even today it is almost impossible for us to believe they were able to find their way thru these forests and to build a wagon trail using the tools of their day.

WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE

Pretty interesting.

[xoxoxoBruce]

In 1849, a military wagon train destined for Oregon forts passed over the road. It carried 250 tons of munitions in more than 400 wagons pulled by 1700 mules. From the beginning of Barlow Road to the camp the soldiers made at what has been known since as Government Camp, they abandoned 45 wagons after dozens of mules died of starvation.

I wonder if they abandoned the munitions in those 45 wagons?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

If I cut the tags off this thread will I be subject to prosecution?

Or just lots of hits with the Mattress Police.