Better Option

[Griff]

I'm exploring better options for 2012.

[richlevy]

Well, he has to be better than this guy.

Josh Mandel is the Republican Ohio state treasurer running against incumbent Sherrod Brown. I watched this video and was both amused and appalled.

I mean, REALLY!!?? This is the best that the Republicans can come up with for a Senate seat in a major swing state?

Rule #1: Never try to limit yourself to talking points when dealing with an editorial board.
Rule #2: Never try to lie to guys who know the facts.

Fact check: While concessions were made, Delphi employees did not 'lose their pensions'. I believe that there was a reduction, but nowhere near as bad as what would have happened if Delphi had gone bankrupt. Mr. moron....er... Mandel's "I'm so upset about this one side issue that I would have made a decision that I'm not actually stating to you" argument won't fly. His granddad was UAW? If he's still alive I hope he never sees this video.

[maineiac04631]

I am voting for Gary Johnson.



btw, I live in Ohio and Josh is a piece of shit, he is the politifact pants on fire king.

[piercehawkeye45]

I've been thinking about third parties a lot lately and I now believe we *eventually* need a grassroot "rational middle" third party in the United States.

As a background, I'm not a big fan of third party protest voting (Green, libertarian, etc.) since I would not actually want one of those parties running the country. However, I think it is clear that both Democrats and Republicans are ignoring key issues due to partisianship that, if not addressed in the next 20 - 30 years, will actually cause the United States to decline as a nation.

We have had two large protest movements in the past four years: Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street. While both have had an influence in our society, it is clear that the Tea Party was more successful. Occupy Wall Street looked to successful social movements of the past for inspiration - labor, women, civil rights and Arab Spring - and I believe Occupy failed where the others didn't because the other protest movements actually had a direct tangible enemy. The Occupy movement essentially protested against the "concept" of the 1%, hoping a "rising of the masses" would force a change in politics in Washington. It should be learned that those types of movements only work when there is a direct, tangible moral issue at stake, not a concept.

The Tea Party, on the other hand, had a more active role in local and state politics, setting themselves up to take over the House of Representatives in 2010. Since then, I think it is obvious that the Tea Party also pulled the Senate and the Republican primary candidates towards their views. While the Tea Party was more successful than Occupy Wall Street, I believe the Tea Party is doomed for failure because it (1) got adsorbed into the Republican party and (2) only focused on a single issue. The debt problem will eventually cause America's decline if it is not addressed, but it is not the only big issue and it cannot be decoupled from those other issues. In order to successfully solve the debt problem, we need to look at a larger picture and solve many other issues in tandem as well.


With those two points, I think a "rational middle" third party would need to incorporate the grassroot mentality and strategies of the Tea Party, sticking to local, state, and House elections, but refuse to be assimilated into either party. The goal of this party would be taking control over local politics while influencing politics at a higher level. By being a large player at the local level and not competing at the Senate and Presidential races, it forces those candidates to address the third parties issues, forcing both Democrats and Republicans back to center while marginalizing the extreme voices. If that happens, then hopefully, bipartisanship can occur again in Washington, allowing us to successfully tackle these large issues.

[infinite monkey]

Originally Posted by maineiac04631

I am voting for Gary Johnson.


btw, I live in Ohio and Josh is a piece of shit, he is the politifact pants on fire king.

Hey Maineiac! Long time no see! Hello.

As to Mandel, I honestly havent paid much attention to him. He seems so irrelevant against Brown. So i have no idea what polls or opinions are prevalent.

I live in a fairly republican part of Ohio. Do you think Mandel is in the running? I see a lot of yard signs for him here.

Would love to hear your opinion.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

I live in a fairly republican part of Ohio. Do you think Mandel is in the running? I see a lot of yard signs for him here.

I think that is a symptom of a lot of spending to unseat Brown. I also see more Romney signs here in Pennsylvania than Obama signs. I wondered why until I saw an interview with the Obama campaign in which they essentially said that yard signs were 'old media'.

Personally, I think that's a mistake. There is a sense of being a part of something when you pass a yard sign supporting your candidate.

[maineiac04631]

I live in republican corner in Ohio, there are a lot of Mandel signs here but I am sure if I went up north there would not be near as many.

I live in Lebanon within walking distance from the Golden Lamb and took these pics of the prep for his appearance.





This was days after the Democrats had a pile of horse manure dumped in the parking lot of their headquarter just outside of Lebanon.

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

... are ignoring key issues due to partisianship that, if not addressed in the next 20 - 30 years, will actually cause the United States to decline as a nation.

Ummm, from where I sit you should have been saying that 20 to 30 years ago.

But yes, partisan politics as rarely good for the nation.

While the Tea Party was more successful than Occupy Wall Street,

I'm not sure about this, but I see very little of sub-federal US politics. OWS has had one lasting achievement - getting the idea of the 1% and the 99% into public discussion and into people's minds. The "1%" meme is in; the idea that there is a very small group of very wealthy and powerful people who have essentially corrupted and usurped the democratic process, leaving only a shadow play there for appearances, and are essentially running the country/world for themselves.
I think the Tea Party agree with much of this, but also object to big government in general, whereas OWS want - or don't mind - big government.

With those two points, I think a "rational middle" third party would need to incorporate the grassroot mentality and strategies of the Tea Party, sticking to local, state, and House elections, but refuse to be assimilated into either party. The goal of this party would be taking control over local politics while influencing politics at a higher level. By being a large player at the local level and not competing at the Senate and Presidential races, it forces those candidates to address the third parties issues, forcing both Democrats and Republicans back to center while marginalizing the extreme voices. If that happens, then hopefully, bipartisanship can occur again in Washington, allowing us to successfully tackle these large issues.

Interesting idea, but I fear that the whiff of power will attract ambitious power-hungry types, who will rapidly turn the new party into much the same as the existing two. Keeping it local might help a bit but pretty soon people who made a start as local mayor for the 3rd part will soon be hankering to be the 3rd party gubernatorial candidate, and then senatorial ...

Didn't one of your Founding Fathers call for a revolution every generation?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

I'm not sure about this, but I see very little of sub-federal US politics. OWS has had one lasting achievement - getting the idea of the 1% and the 99% into public discussion and into people's minds. The "1%" meme is in; the idea that there is a very small group of very wealthy and powerful people who have essentially corrupted and usurped the democratic process, leaving only a shadow play there for appearances, and are essentially running the country/world for themselves.

I agree that the Occupy movement did successfully push the income inequality issue to the forefront. However, nothing was done about it in Washington. The Tea Party was able to push the debt issue to the forefront and elect people that are crazy enough to actually try to solve it. I can't imagine that Republicans would have held raising the debt ceiling hostage without the Tea Party influence. Paul Ryan is a direct response to the tea party. There are other instances as well.

Interesting idea, but I fear that the whiff of power will attract ambitious power-hungry types, who will rapidly turn the new party into much the same as the existing two. Keeping it local might help a bit but pretty soon people who made a start as local mayor for the 3rd part will soon be hankering to be the 3rd party gubernatorial candidate, and then senatorial ...

You are correct that no person/persons would be able to control the party in that way but the larger idea is to create a third party that can successfully achieve its goal even if corrupted, which would inevitably happen (see Tea Party). A virtuous ideal third party will never last long but the main problem I see with American politics is the partisanship. This prevents both parties from addressing non-partisian issues or working together. If a third party can simply force some issues into the forefront, with some party members causing a ruckus in the House and the backing of a decently sized bloc of voters, it could easily move the Republican and Democratic politicians back towards the center. This could happen no matter the amount of money goes into the third party.

I see this third party idea as more of a threat to Republicans and Democrats to get their act together, not a permanent alternative. I'm assuming this third party would eventually get adsorbed into the original two, but that process would most likely achieve the goal of weakening the partisanship in Washington since it forces both parties to react and adapt.

[Juniper]

Originally Posted by maineiac04631

I live in republican corner in Ohio, there are a lot of Mandel signs here but I am sure if I went up north there would not be near as many.

I live in Lebanon within walking distance from the Golden Lamb and took these pics of the prep for his appearance.
pile of horse manure dumped in the parking lot of their headquarter just outside of Lebanon.

Really? Kewl! I live about 15 minutes away.

We were camping at Cedarbrook Campground (you probably know where that is) on the rally weekend. Some of my friends got tickets and walked over. I was going to go, just for history's sake, but the kids had homecoming and I had to get them ready. Yeah, despite our camping weekend. Like I said, we live close. For us camping = partying our asses off with a bed nearby (in an RV).

Mandel is just creepy to me. He reminds me of the dude in the HBO series Big Love - whatshisname - the guy who took over when old Roman croaked, the one who was having gay sex in the park. Alby. Creepy. And I generally vote Republican, so sue me.



And as such, I was very dismayed about the manure dump. Very childish.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I agree that the Occupy movement did successfully push the income inequality issue to the forefront. However, nothing was done about it in Washington.

The Tea Party was pushing the debt issue to the front burner and politicians in Washington were really talking about the various programs they would slash and burn, then the Occupy movement came along and put a stop to those plans. It may look like the Occupy movement did nothing, but what they did was put a stop to the momentum of Tea Party's cutting social programs while giving tax cuts to the rich.

I agree with you that the politics should be local. The problems we are facing today are a direct result of efforts by people like Rove who are trying to polarize politics. It's not just the level of discourse that I'm talking about. The Republicans very wisely focused their efforts on the various state houses a few years back so that they could redraw the districts when the 2010 census data came out. It's the drawing of the districts that is the number one reason for the partisanship we see today. If the districts were drawn so that a moderate would be needed to win a seat, we would see moderates in office who would be willing to reach across the aisle at times. But now the districts are drawn so that each one is pretty clearly leaning in one direction or the other. Representatives only have to appeal to their bases and they will be elected. So they compete to be more extreme. That's where their bread is buttered. We need to get the system set up so that the politicians see that their bread is buttered by the moderates.

[piercehawkeye45]

Good points. Thank you.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Juniper

snip--
And as such, I was very dismayed about the manure dump. Very childish.

so, you're suggesting this was evidence that Romney supporters had recently been there?

[Juniper]

Well, yes. I thought that was obvious.

There are few things I hate more than being part of a group and seeing said group get a trashed reputation by a few idiots who claim to be part of it too. Which is why, I guess, I have trouble committing fully to a lot of groups and causes that I would generally endorse.

Christianity, for example. Geez, there are an awful lot of nutty so-called Christians out there.

I would imagine Muslims feel the same.

Rambling again. Sorry.