3/4/2004: Ashoura 2004

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Pearcie (AUS)
Is it just me, or can no one see Troubleshooter's pics???

Here are the links to the pics, please look at them and tell me things are all fine and dandy.

http://www.twin-towers.net/images/Ashoura.jpg

http://www.twin-towers.net/images/Ashoura7.jpg

http://www.twin-towers.net/kgart.jpg

http://www.twin-towers.net/kgart3.jpg

Edit: That's too weird. If you put the link in the address box directly it works fine, but any form of redirect sends you somewhere else entirely. Well, here's the site, try that.

http://www.twin-towers.net/muslims.htm

[Shattered Soul]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter


I'm sensing a little sarcasm here. I'm not sure though.

Hence my opinion of the reliance on religion in the first place. It's silly and a waste of time, money and paper.

I take it you are an athiest, or at the least, an agnostic? And I take it you have a very long list of what you consider "weakness," and religion falls into that category? You seem to be very sure of yourself and that your beliefs are eminently logical, and therefore correct (the rest of us are just too unevolved to see it).

Seems to me that you've created a world of your own and do what it takes to prove that world's validity to everyone else. Hm. Kinda like the religious folks...

Merely because some find comfort in the belief in something greater than themselves, and use that belief to their benefit, even though religion has been the basis of wars (usually, however, instigated by the governments who saw a use for believers and believers who were zealous enough to go along with it) is no call to unilaterally deem it "silly and a waste of time..." You don't believe it, or feel it worthy of belief, well, don't believe it. Don't ascribe to it. Don't hang with people who will soil your pristinely logical mind with spirituality.

[Zenchou]

I don't think that there is anything wrong with being averse to this kind of behavior. Quite frankly my first reaction is distaste as well. But what we need to do is step back and examine the actions from outside our own cultural view (if that is possible).

Stating that what these people deserve is a machine gun smiley is not exactly a worthwhile idea in my opinion.

The children are scared, yes. They bleed, yes. It is dangerous, yes. It is contrary to our system of beliefs, yes. But the question is, are we really averse to this because the children are in serious danger, or is it because this is a cultural idea which seems foreign to us.

A bad example, but here goes: Lets look at swimming lessons. I personally was terrified of swimming. My parents forced me to learn how, and I am thankful now, because I rather enjoy swimming. Now, was I scared as hell? yes. Also, there is a chance that I could drown. Slight, this is true, but still a chance. Yet we don't see forcing a kid to learn how to swim even though he is afraid of the water as a horrible thing.

This is a bad parallel, I know, but it conveys the idea adequately I think. We are shocked by this because our values do not coincide with it, but if we take it out of our frame of vision, and look at it from a different cultural perspective, it is not quite the way we imagined it to be.

That all being said, perhaps there are some cultures which have better ideas on raising children than do others, but that is an argument which in all probability cannot be solved. I don't even want to begin suggesting which culture's children are "better" because that is a worthless argument in my opinion.

What I AM sure of is suggesting that people who commit strange, sometimes dangerous acts should all be machine gunned to death because they are primitive.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Shattered Soul


I take it you are an athiest, or at the least, an agnostic? And I take it you have a very long list of what you consider "weakness," and religion falls into that category? You seem to be very sure of yourself and that your beliefs are eminently logical, and therefore correct (the rest of us are just too unevolved to see it).

Seems to me that you've created a world of your own and do what it takes to prove that world's validity to everyone else. Hm. Kinda like the religious folks...

Merely because some find comfort in the belief in something greater than themselves, and use that belief to their benefit, even though religion has been the basis of wars (usually, however, instigated by the governments who saw a use for believers and believers who were zealous enough to go along with it) is no call to unilaterally deem it "silly and a waste of time..." You don't believe it, or feel it worthy of belief, well, don't believe it. Don't ascribe to it. Don't hang with people who will soil your pristinely logical mind with spirituality.

Some people feel the need for something greater than themselves. I don't.

Some people feel the need for an answer to every unsolved question. I'm quite willing to accept "I don't know," instead of making up a completely improvable, and no more plausible than anybody else's, story about how it happened.

Religion is the manifestation of humanity's insecurities and inability to think about more than their self.

[Pearcie (AUS)]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter


Religion is the manifestation of humanity's insecurities and inability to think about more than their self.

Here Here! Well said Shooter.

[Shattered Soul]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter


Some people feel the need for something greater than themselves. I don't.

Oooh...delusions of grandeur...gotta love 'em.

Some people feel the need for an answer to every unsolved question. I'm quite willing to accept "I don't know," instead of making up a completely improvable, and no more plausible than anybody else's, story about how it happened.

Ah, but you imply that you DO know, merely by saying that religion (I prefer "spirituality," I don't personally ascribe to "religion," myself. ) is silly and a waste of time. You don't KNOW that. You BELIEVE that, but you can't say that you KNOW. And merely because something hasn't been proven doesn't mean it can't be.

Religion is the manifestation of humanity's insecurities and inability to think about more than their self.

Again, your opinion, not necessarily reality. Others may feel differently. Merely because people desire to believe in something bigger than themselves is not necessarily an insecurity, and the very belief in a creator, however one chooses to picture it/him/her is looking beyond oneself.


Oh, and it's "themselves," btw...

[Shattered Soul]

I just love playing Devil's Advocate.

I believe what I believe, and anyone who believes differently is free to, so long as they don't shove their different beliefs down MY throat. Live and let live, I say. But TS, you're so SURE of what you believe, and SO SURE that you're right, that you bring out the Devil's Advocate in me. You strike me as an "The only time I was ever wrong was the one time I thought I was wrong" kind of person.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter


Here are the links to the pics, please look at them and tell me things are all fine and dandy.
http://www.twin-towers.net/muslims.htm

I don't understand the purpose of the site. Pro Muslim? AntiMuslim? They are certainly pro-lesbian porn. Are they trying to make a political statement? Why are most of the photos missing?

[Pearcie (AUS)]

Originally posted by Shattered Soul
I just love playing Devil's Advocate.

I believe what I believe, and anyone who believes differently is free to, so long as they don't shove their different beliefs down MY throat. Live and let live, I say.

Now this is good stuff! I totally agree with this one Shattered. Mainly the idea of "believe what you want just don't preach to me".

On the other hand, this is a discussion forum where the idea is to discuss what we see and how it makes us feel. We're not sending all these thoughts over to the ppl concerned, we're just voicing opinions and ideas. For anyone to say anyone else's beliefs are 'wrong' is absurd but we can express how we see these beliefs personally, and what better place to do it than here in the Cellar.

[Shattered Soul]

Originally posted by Pearcie (AUS)


Now this is good stuff! I totally agree with this one Shattered. Mainly the idea of "believe what you want just don't preach to me".

On the other hand, this is a discussion forum where the idea is to discuss what we see and how it makes us feel. We're not sending all these thoughts over to the ppl concerned, we're just voicing opinions and ideas. For anyone to say anyone else's beliefs are 'wrong' is absurd but we can express how we see these beliefs personally, and what better place to do it than here in the Cellar.

I agree. Like I said, it's just that he brings out the Devil's Advocate in me. All of his posts are so "this is how it is, end of story." I'm having a blast.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Zenchou
I don't think that there is anything wrong with being averse to this kind of behavior. Quite frankly my first reaction is distaste as well. But what we need to do is step back and examine the actions from outside our own cultural view (if that is possible).

I appreciate the understanding that you are showing, but that being said, understanding need only go so far. Ashoura is only part of the problem. It's part of a program that teaches that infidels are only so much extra shrapnel.

Originally posted by Zenchou

Stating that what these people deserve is a machine gun smiley is not exactly a worthwhile idea in my opinion.

I disagree. They want to give us a bit more than a smiley.

Originally posted by Zenchou

The children are scared, yes. They bleed, yes. It is dangerous, yes. It is contrary to our system of beliefs, yes. But the question is, are we really averse to this because the children are in serious danger, or is it because this is a cultural idea which seems foreign to us.

I'm averse to it because it's only the tip of a homicidal, suicidal, dark ages, un-evolved, towering mountain of hate.

Originally posted by Zenchou

A bad example, but here goes: Lets look at swimming lessons. I personally was terrified of swimming. My parents forced me to learn how, and I am thankful now, because I rather enjoy swimming. Now, was I scared as hell? yes. Also, there is a chance that I could drown. Slight, this is true, but still a chance. Yet we don't see forcing a kid to learn how to swim even though he is afraid of the water as a horrible thing.

This is a bad parallel, I know, but it conveys the idea adequately I think. We are shocked by this because our values do not coincide with it, but if we take it out of our frame of vision, and look at it from a different cultural perspective, it is not quite the way we imagined it to be.

Um, swimming is useful, as in not drowning. Scalping yourself isn't. Hell, even the native americans had the sense to do it to the other guy and sell them to a third party for a profit.

Originally posted by Zenchou

That all being said, perhaps there are some cultures which have better ideas on raising children than do others, but that is an argument which in all probability cannot be solved. I don't even want to begin suggesting which culture's children are "better" because that is a worthless argument in my opinion.

Then it is my opinion that you need to read and get out more.

Originally posted by Zenchou

What I AM sure of is suggesting that people who commit strange, sometimes dangerous acts should all be machine gunned to death because they are primitive.

While a bit ambiguous, I'm guessing that you meant to end with is, "is bad," or some such, so I'll answer on that basis.

If there can be shown a provable link between a given culture/group/etc. and past and present attrocities and there appears to be a liklihood of future attrocities then I say "Fire when ready Gridley!" And don't forget the dosimeters and the marshmellows.

[Pearcie (AUS)]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter


I say "Fire when ready Gridley!" And don't forget the dosimeters and the marshmellows.

LOL!!!

[Shattered Soul]

BUT, returning to the topic for a moment, I figure the adults can do whatever the hell they want to themselves, but I don't think the children should be involved until they're old enough to make the conscious choice. Course, they don't really have a CHOICE, when you think about it, do they, considering the fact that the country is a Theocracy....

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Oooh...delusions of grandeur...gotta love 'em.

Not at all. No one, ever, anywhere, anytime, has shown me that there is more to this existence than what we create.

Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Ah, but you imply that you DO know, merely by saying that religion (I prefer "spirituality," I don't personally ascribe to "religion," myself. ) is silly and a waste of time. You don't KNOW that. You BELIEVE that, but you can't say that you KNOW. And merely because something hasn't been proven doesn't mean it can't be.

See my first point. If it's unproven it's not religion, it's art. Calling all of this art is the only thing that could redeem it at this point. Catharsis and auto-erotic masochism I could tolerate.

Originally posted by Shattered Soul
Again, your opinion, not necessarily reality. Others may feel differently. Merely because people desire to believe in something bigger than themselves is not necessarily an insecurity, and the very belief in a creator, however one chooses to picture it/him/her is looking beyond oneself.

Then what is it?

And I'm not going to kill you for not changing your mind about my beliefs either.

Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Oh, and it's "themselves," btw...

I stand corrected.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Uh, it's marshmallows.

even the native americans had the sense to do it to the other guy and sell them to a third party for a profit.

Many indigenous peoples, including Indians of the Americas used blood rituals and scarification as part of their religious ceremonies.