Food Deserts and Inequality in Access to Nutrition.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by orthodoc

Education, and cultural expectations, are definitely part of the issue. When I worked in Moosonee (sub-arctic, south end of James Bay) in the 1980s, the train brought in groceries once a week for the local grocery store. The next day, every frozen dinner, all the frozen fish, wings, and fried whatever would have been stripped from the store; all the baked goods would be gone; the produce was always untouched. (People there weren't living on the land, with a few exceptions, and weren't adhering to an Inuit diet or anything similar.)

That said, I'm all for local sourcing - fresh, local food through coops, farmer's markets, etc. The more direct farm-to-table, the better.

Walking, or the refusal to do it, is another cultural thing. Americans don't generally like to walk. American cities and neighborhoods aren't laid out to encourage walking (to walk to my local grocery is to take your life in your hands). If it isn't dangerous, though, 1/2 to 1 mile is NOT a long distance. My ex-mother in law walked a mile each way to her local grocery well into her eighties. She pulled a little wire grocery cart and bought what she needed that day. She came from a European tradition of daily marketing and never kept food in her fridge more than a day. I have relatives who walk five miles or more daily, in their seventies. When they go sightseeing (in Canada), people think they're nuts to walk 2 miles to see a local attraction.

It will take major public health programs to address behaviors like these - encouraging people to choose walking, to choose local, healthy foods to eat, and so on. I think the funding needs to be provided; otherwise we're facing a public health disaster over the next ten to fifteen years. But it'll take time, because people have to internalize new attitudes and choices.

Took the words out of my mouth. I agree with you and UT. The problem is as much about upbringing and education as it is about accessibility.

That said, it's one thing to take a mile or two stroll either alone or with another adult when you don't need to carry anything either coming or going. The image that comes to my mind is a single mom trying to cross a busy inner city street with a couple of toddlers and a baby in a stroller. Even if the Mom is a fitness freak who runs 5 miles a day, she might feel daunted by the logistics of making it to a store even a half mile away and then returning home with the additional burden of several bags of groceries. Even someone who could use the city bus for such a trip might feel overwhelmed and justifiably so.

Sure, this hypothetical Mom could repeat the expedition every day, so she wouldn’t have to carry as many things, but is it realistic to expect her to do so? In addition, those little grocery cart thingies cost money. Even an expenditure of $20.00 extra may break a budget which can’t even cover the cost of pampers by the last few days of the month.

In rural America, the distances involved can prove insurmountable for anyone from 8 to 80 without a car. Even if you have a cute little cart and are spunky and fit, it would take the better part of your day to walk 10 miles to the grocery store and 10 miles back. And that’s if you leave the kids alone at home to amuse themselves by setting fire to the water coming out of the tap in the kitchen sink.

Eating the foods produced locally may or may not be a viable alternative. It helps to have a farmer’s market somewhere nearby. If you live in a small town in rural America, the farmer’s market can be 30 or more miles away over in the county seat. In addition, if you actually have a way to get over to the bright lights of Bumfuck City, the farmer’s market probably doesn’t take food stamps. Curses, foiled again.

But that’s OK. You are going to grow your own garden to put some decent food on the family table. You also just so happen to have housing that includes a yard big enough for a vegetable garden, the landlord doesn’t care if you tear up the lawn out back to plant some veggies, and you live in a region where the cost of the extra water does not factor into the equation. Good for you, but many low income families in rural areas are not as fortunate. Try growing a garden out West with no access to irrigation, for example. You couldn’t even put in a crop of pinto beans and forget the tomatoes.

Nothing is ever simple.

[DanaC]

Nicely put Sam.

I especially liked this line:

And that’s if you leave the kids alone at home to amuse themselves by setting fire to the water coming out of the tap in the kitchen sink.

You know, you really are a fucking good writer.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by SamIam

The image that comes to my mind is a single mom trying to cross a busy inner city street with a couple of toddlers and a baby in a stroller. Even if the Mom is a fitness freak who runs 5 miles a day, she might feel daunted by the logistics of making it to a store even a half mile away and then returning home with the additional burden of several bags of groceries. Even someone who could use the city bus for such a trip might feel overwhelmed and justifiably so.

I walk along inner city streets every single day and they are the easiest streets to walk along. You have wide sidewalks and intersections with crosswalks and signals. The traffic is so heavy that the cars never get above about 20 mph. Pedestrians pretty much rule in the city.

It gets a little worse in the suburbs, because you don't have as many signals and you don't have sidewalks on many streets. Traffic goes around 40 mph, so your time to cross the street is shorter before going splat.

Rural areas are the worst. There is never a sidewalk, and often just a ditch at the side of the road. The distances are huge, and even though traffic is light, the cars are going 50 mph or greater.

The problem with grocery shopping in the city is that there are no real grocery stores in the city. Just little corner stores.

edit: I average about 6-7 miles a day of walking just going through my daily routine.

[orthodoc]

I know all about dragging four small children along on grocery shopping trips. Navigating a huge parking lot with a bunch of preschoolers and a baby was terrifying. I know there are all sorts of situations. It's the general principles I'm talking about.

My point re my m-i-l was that her trips took real effort, they weren't a mere stroll. At 84, navigating the hills on the way to the store wasn't easy, nor was pulling the cart. She lived on far less than poverty level income so the cost of the cart was significant to her, but she made it a priority. She didn't have Pampers to buy but also didn't have WIC or other programs.

I think the maps offer some food for thought, but a much closer look is needed. And while some single moms may find it impossible to get to the store (although how do they get anywhere, then? Do they never leave the apartment?), part of public health planning is to get programs going that bring the 'store' right into the neighborhood, whether as farmer's markets or coops or community gardens. Living in urban areas is actually more friendly to walking, as glatt says. I know an urban planner in Denver who is frustrated beyond reason with the typical suburban planning layout, who wants to plan small urban-style neighborhoods where you can walk to all the important stores and services. Anyway ... plenty of food for thought and planning.

[DanaC]

All the strategies people can employ to alleviate their health inequality/state of mind in the face of grinding poverty are fine for a few days, or weeks, or months. The 2 mile walk to the supermarket with kids and shopping, the homegrown bits and bobs, the daily shopping of marked down veg and meats etc etc.

But every day in poverty, 365 days a year, every year, with no real sense of anything being truly changeable saps the will.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by DanaC

But every day in poverty, 365 days a year, every year, with no real sense of anything being truly changeable saps the will.

I've never really been there. My gripes have been more about working with people who earn two or three times my salary and comparing my life to theirs. "We're a team sounds hollow when your big treat every month is buying a cold bottle of Diet Coke and theirs is going to The Ivy. It's certainly not their fault, but if it hurt me when I was working full time I can see how it chafes people who find themselves unable to.

I've been in the same general area though. And it has to be part of your life. I remember resenting a documentary about women on benefits - or something like that - because she had branded condiments. Hang on! I want HP Sauce too! I buy my eggs singly and my fresh food every day because I can't afford any waste!

But you cut your cloth. You have to. And it takes planning, and time and commitment to live healthily on a low income when you are responsible for every penny.

Lucky here now. Never go without toilet paper or washing up liquid or washing powder in order to eat. I feel genuine pity for those without a safety net. No matter how bad things felt, I always had one.

[Rhianne]

Are there beer or tobacco deserts I wonder?

But what has really surprised me most about this thread is that no-one has asked what Clodfobble does with 20 pounds of zucchini each week.

[Sundae]

Sorry, Rhi.
You've only been here five years. There are still some initiation tests you need to pass...

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Rhianne

Are there beer or tobacco deserts I wonder?

But what has really surprised me most about this thread is that no-one has asked what Clodfobble does with 20 pounds of zucchini each week.

Apart from Muslim countries, in the US we have Dry Counties.

Here's a map:
Red=Dry
Yellow=Mixed
Blue=Wet

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by glatt

I walk along inner city streets every single day and they are the easiest streets to walk along. You have wide sidewalks and intersections with crosswalks and signals. The traffic is so heavy that the cars never get above about 20 mph. Pedestrians pretty much rule in the city.

It gets a little worse in the suburbs, because you don't have as many signals and you don't have sidewalks on many streets. Traffic goes around 40 mph, so your time to cross the street is shorter before going splat.

It's been a long time since I've visited the Arlington/DC area. I used to get over there a couple of times a year because my ex-husband grew up in Arlington and still had family there. Sounds like things are still about the way I remember them. Back when I made my first visits to the DC area, I was really impressed by the Metro which was only recently completed back then.. I loved to walk down the mile or so from my ex's family home to the nearest metro station and ride under the Potomac and into DC, so we could stroll around and visit the Smithsonian and all the rest.

But isn’t “inner city” DC kind of an exception to the inner city of parts of NYC and other major metro areas? I don’t know because DC is the only inner city area I have experience with other than Denver and there’s no comparison.

I spent far too much of my life in Colorado Springs (metro area pop 500,000), and THAT city is awful. The bus system is bad, speed limits can be as high as 50mph on streets that go through major business areas and many times there are no sidewalks.

As Dana might say, you're spot on about the woes of being a pedestrian in a rural area

Originally Posted by orthodoc

I know all about dragging four small children along on grocery shopping trips. Navigating a huge parking lot with a bunch of preschoolers and a baby was terrifying. I know there are all sorts of situations. It's the general principles I'm talking about.

My point re my m-i-l was that her trips took real effort, they weren't a mere stroll. At 84, navigating the hills on the way to the store wasn't easy, nor was pulling the cart. She lived on far less than poverty level income so the cost of the cart was significant to her, but she made it a priority. She didn't have Pampers to buy but also didn't have WIC or other programs.

Must have been a major pain in the ass, doc, and you had a car. Moms should all be given medals for just not going insane. I’m in complete agreement about the principle.

I guess I was a little snippy about the cart. I had a bit of resentment over those little carts because there was a time in my life when I had to walk a mile or so to the grocery store and could barely afford the rent, never mind any extras. Sometimes I would “borrow” one of those smaller carts the stores now have and wheel home my groceries in it. I’d return it on my next trip. Your MIL was an exceptional lady, but I have to respectfully differ with you as to whether she is a good analogy to an urban Mom with 3 or 4 little kids.

Originally Posted by Rhianne

Are there beer or tobacco deserts I wonder?

Thank dog, those are few and far between! People of all income brackets and ages do love their vices. Those corner stores carry smokes and any town with a population of more than 500 always has a liquor store which also carries cigarettes.

Originally Posted by Rhianne

But what has really surprised me most about this thread is that no-one has asked what Clodfobble does with 20 pounds of zucchini each week

Me too. I assume she juices them?

@ Dana: You’re so sweet. TY!

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Thank dog, those are few and far between! People of all income brackets and ages do love their vices. Those corner stores carry smokes and any town with a population of more than 500 always has a liquor store which also carries cigarettes.

It varies so much state to state. You can't buy cigs at liquor stores in NY, You can't even buy mixers; only wine and liquor. Grocery stores can sell beer. In VT, just across the road, you can buy beer, wine, liquor, cigs, mixers, lottery tickets, candy etc at the state liquor stores, Beer and wine at grocery stores.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

In VT, just across the road, you can buy beer, wine, liquor, cigs, mixers, lottery tickets, candy etc at the state liquor stores, Beer and wine at grocery stores.

Technically true, but they have to ring you up twice/give you two receipts: one from the Vermont Liquor Outlet with ONLY your liquors over 20% and one from the private store with everything else. The one in Winooski has two separate checkouts/registers; the one on Pearl st. here in Burlington just does it all on one register, I think, which separates out the tickets.

The liquor store itself, therefore, can only sell liquors, but is, afaik, always attached to a store that sells the rest.

[Sundae]

Now in England, many stores sell everything.
Lottery, booze, fags etc. In fact you can buy drink from 08.00 (as I know to my detriment). Supermarkets and indepent shops.

And yes, some of the corner stores are Muslim owned, but why should they care how kafir kill themselves?
If'n they don't indulge themselves anyway.
Not being snide - I've known plenty of Christians break the Ten Commandments.

As far as I am aware there are still some places in Wales and Scotland that are "dry" on Sundays. Even that may be inaccurate - it is certainly against the norm. I just remember it from camping trips in my childhood.

[footfootfoot]

True. It's been about 20 years since I lived in Burlington, but in Bennington at the liquor store sort of across from Family Footwear on 7 I don't remember ever getting two receipts, but I also usually only get one type of hooch at a time so that might be why. Or maybe they have a way of ringing them as different categories?

This calls for a road trip to investigate!

[Ibby]

I'm pretty sure when I would send seniors out to pick up both beer and liquor at the BBO they'd bring me back two receipts.