SPAIN - THANK YOU

[Kitsune]

It's you and me Kitsune, just average folks on there way to some ordinary thing...blown into just parts, for NOTHING.

Yeah, but you don't know 'em. It didn't happen in your state, country, or side of the world. Senseless death happens every day all over the place and is reported on the news. Murder this, and car accident that, a bus explosion here, the death of a soldier there. Hell, sometimes an entire population of people gets hacked to death with machettis. Its non-stop, often happening to people just like us doing the same things we do.

I'm not at all saying you are strange for feeling sad over this, but I just don't feel it, anymore, as its way to common of a thing to feel genuine sadness towards. I feel concern over it, displeasure, and even anger towards the people that do these things, but I'm not going to stand out in the street over it, cry, or send a card.

Again, not trying to be an asshole, just a bit confused as to the general emotional reaction from people who didn't lose anyone they knew and in response to an event that does not directly affect them. (And, admittedly, a bit of strange curiosity towards the few people out there who feign sadness over an event in order to feel as if they are part of a larger group.)

[elSicomoro]

Wolf and I were talking about this the other night, actually.

What happened is horrible...a lot of innocent people died. When I heard about it, I felt a bit of emotion, but not much. I felt more indifferent than anything else. Maybe if it had happened closer to home, I might feel differently.

And that bothers me. Because when situations like this happen, I think we should be angry and sad. No one deserves to be a victim of violent crime, and we should do all we can (within reason) to reduce or eliminate it.

Having said that, I don't see anyone here condoning what happened. I personally found Quzah's comment to be quite funny...I have a rather dark sense of humor. It ain't the first time I've been called an asshole though, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

[xoxoxoBruce]

What hit me most is a new front. I felt the same when it happened in the Pacific. I'm desensitized to the middle east because it's happened so often and for so long. I guess it's like Londoners during the Blitz, you're just thankful it wasn't you and go on with your life.

(I don't really buy the government over people concept)

I'm with you Griff, but the Spanish are not, or haven't been anyway. Some pine for Franco but will settle for Jaun Carlos.

[OnyxCougar]

We've been desentized to the world's violence. It's no wonder that it's difficult to have true sadness or anger over things that don't "hit home". That's one of the reasons 9/11 was such a shock. We're used to "Ten people were killed in the West Bank today". Even "311 people were killed on an airliner went it crashed in Germany". It invokes, "Aw, man, that SUCKS. Turn it to Fox. The Simpsons are on."

Then we saw scenes of AMERICA being blown up. People jumping out of buildings dozens of stories up. This was New York, Man, they used us against us. It was now real.

And I daresay, even in the Western half of the Country (I was in Vegas at the time), it still didn't feel real. It felt like another movie by the makers of Armageddon. "Man, this is an awful long, trailer. They must be promoting this one heavy. And look...they got CNN to help em out."

I haven't been to the site, and I don't think I want to go. I'm sensitive to (I'm not sure what to call it so I'll say) places of tragic events, and I hate to see what happens if I go. I'm sure it won't be pretty.

But back on topic, it hit me more when Diana died than hearing 10 bombs went off on a train and killed however many people.

And it doesn't make me "insensitive" to be that way.

[Griff]

This stuff can still get to me, that's one reason why I stay away from the tv. Initially its a death of a thousand cuts then they heal and I lose my sensitivity to things which impact me more directly. I felt it when I heard about the Spanish bombings then I got the pang of dread. This war could get very wide very quickly and our arguments here about proper response will become irrelevant. I'll still think we're building our own enemy and Toad will still think we're not hitting back hard enough. In the end we won't know for sure why the war grew into such a bloodbath but it will have. From my perspective a letter of apology would be more appropriate...

[Kitsune]

And I daresay, even in the Western half of the Country (I was in Vegas at the time), it still didn't feel real.

I have to agree with you, OC. I think it is because I've never been to New York and because I never got to see the World Trade Center, so I had no connection at all with what was going on. It still had a huge impact on me, but mostly because it was so bad it didn't feel real in any way. Knowing that this was happening in the US proved to be incredibly frightening, but the confusion left of "this can't be happening" made it all the more strange and almost erie. Yet, had I not flipped on the news that day or gone to work, I would have never have known what had happened that morning, not even if weeks passed. There was no direct effect on me, so the only emotions I could really feel were shock, concern, and worry for the future. I couldn't feel sad about it and I couldn't pretend to, as there is no way I could even begin to understand what the people in New York City were going through, much less the friends and families of those that were lost.

It's no wonder that it's difficult to have true sadness or anger over things that don't "hit home".

I used to blame the media on this, but on thinking more about this tonight I understand that it really isn't the fault of twenty-four hours news channels or violent movies. What must it have been like when newspapers hit the stands when Pearl Harbor was bombed? There was only newspaper text, followed by news reels days later of shaky, black and white footage of the boiler of a ship exploding and some sinking vessels. How could people on the East coast of the United States feel sorrow for those people lost when all they had was a number of dead? The media of those days didn't have nearly the ability to convey what the media of today does. Now, after a bomb goes off, we see body parts in the streets or the actual car chase as it is happening through the streets of LA followed immediately by the faces of the dead, interviews with the families, and home movies of previous happy times of the families enjoying quality time together with their children. That should bring on immense sadness.

But it doesn't, anymore.

But back on topic, it hit me more when Diana died than hearing 10 bombs went off on a train and killed however many people.

I share similar thoughts, here: I felt much more legitimate sadness when the Space Shuttle Challenger and Columbia were lost. Fewer lives were destroyed, but those were still "sick to my stomach" days.

[Kitsune]

...and while on this topic, I think its time to pull this article back up: Forbidden Thoughts on September 11th

"I'm sorry to say it, but it was the most exciting day of my career in journalism. It was really fuckin' fun."

I never had thoughts quite like these when I saw the events that morning. Some of these people are awful.


....okay, so maybe I did have the whole, "Hey, this feels kind of like a snow-day!" going at the time. And it was kind of neat to flip on the scanner and hear the local air frequencies playing a looped warning over and over. And it was interesting to look up and not see a single airplane in the sky. Really peaceful.

[Pi]

By the way, most of the spaniards were against the war. That's why the right-wing governement now lost the elections....
So I think most of the 8 millions have bad feelings against USA for starting another war who now goes over to Spain...

[aerion_13]

That's a step backwards...

[elSicomoro]

That...or, it is a message from Spanish voters that says, "Thanks for dragging us into the war, fuckers!"

The election was fairly close at last report...and it wasn't a majority of the votes (Socialists 43%, ruling Popular Party 38%).

[wolf]

We are suffering from tragedy overload ... 200 hundred dead? Kinda pales in comparison to 3000+, two buildings lost, one damaged, four planes down.

Everything else is just pocket change.

Particularly when it's far away.

Individual tragedy can still make its mark, but this mass stuff ... no longer.

And yes, I do think this is sad.

[Beestie]

That's why the right-wing governement now lost the elections....

Allah be praised.

[Undertoad]

Spain to Al Qaeda: Terrorism works.


Please choose one and only one:

__ Iraq has nothing to do with al Qaeda and so terrorism is not a reason to wage war in Iraq

__ Removing a regime supportive of terrorism will enflame the terrorists and piss them off and make them fight harder

[Undertoad]

via Andrew Sullivan

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/eu...est/index.html

CNN also has obtained a document posted on an Internet message board analysts believe is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.
The strategy spelled out in the document, posted last December on the Internet, calls for using terrorist attacks to drive Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.
That was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.
"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.
"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed - and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

To our Brit readers: don't ride trains in the two weeks preceding the next election.

[Beestie]

Funny how the title of this thread has taken on a whole new meaning.