Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...

[sexobon]

*sigh* We miss you Lawrence.

[DanaC]

Hahahaha.

Very good .

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Gentleman - The civilian to combatant casualty ratio in Gaza seems to be one of the best on record. Check out the ratios for Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam. You seem to forget that this is asymmetric warfare which always has higher ratios than a conventional war. The cry about the death of 109 children is nothing. Hell, I'm probably responsible for more than that when I ran a targeting cell. It is the nature of the game when they have human shields. Grow a set of stones and quit whining about the little stuff.

Sarge-

Fuck you, you ignorant, hypocritical piece of shit.

Would you feel the same "it's nothing" if it were your daughters who were killed? If your answer is yes, then I will have nothing to do with you, ever again. If your answer is no, then explain to my how you think your love of your children is greater/better/more important than the love these bereft parents have for their children. If your answer is no, explain why your children matter more than those other children who have been killed.

[henry quirk]

As I say up-thread: All I'm seein' are folks interested in profiting from their 'oppressed' status goin' at it with folks interested in foistin' up their demented religion on the world.

To hell with both sides...to hell with those who advocate for either side.

However, I must add this amendment: Currently, no Jew is demanding I become Jewish or die.

No Jew is lookin' to cut my head off just because I exist (as non-Jew).

The Wahhabists, on the other hand...*shrug*

So while I still say 'to hell with both sides', if push comes to shove: I'd rather see the Islamic orthodoxists put down than the Israelis (even if the Israelis have dirty hands).

It's a matter of practicalities.

[DanaC]

As far as I can tell there aren't any Palestinians threatening to cut off your head either.


Hamas are not wahhabists. They have fought against wahhabi groups within Gaza.

http://lubpak.com/archives/1329

[henry quirk]

Just cuz the hydra has multiple heads one shouldn't assume each head represents a separate entity...even if the heads nip at each other, they all share the same body.

And: if you prefer, I'll call them 'Islamic Orthodoxists'.

Or: would you prefer demented religionists?

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by BigV

Sarge-

Fuck you, you ignorant, hypocritical piece of shit.

Would you feel the same "it's nothing" if it were your daughters who were killed? If your answer is yes, then I will have nothing to do with you, ever again. If your answer is no, then explain to my how you think your love of your children is greater/better/more important than the love these bereft parents have for their children. If your answer is no, explain why your children matter more than those other children who have been killed.

Way to take it to a personal level with the name calling. Anyway, I'd be devastated if my children died. However, their will always be civilian casualties in asymmetric warfare. Seriously look at Israel's record as compared to the US, Great Britain, or NATO (specifically in Bosnia). Before you defame me again, talk to the other veterans in the Cellar about civilian casualties in combat. You have to learn to accept them to accomplish a mission. It is not the fault of the IDF, when Hamas uses human shields or even bombs their own citizens due to indiscriminate firing. None of you have even mentioned the Hamas strike on the synagogue before prayers on the Sabbath.

Dana - Hamas doesn't cut off your head, they shoot you. Remember we discussed the recent 18 executions. I cannot understand why you would support a country that practices female genital mutilation and other violence against women. The Palestinian Center for Democracy and Conflict Resolution report indicated that Palestinian women face many forms of violence, with 76.4% of Gazan women being subjected to emotional violence, 34.8% to physical violence, 14.9% to sexual violence, 78.9% to social violence and 88.3% to economic violence. I think we also need to review their LGBT record.

As far as converting them to Christian as was mentioned in a recent joke, the Islamization of Gaza has put increasing pressure on the tiny Christian minority. Following the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007, Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, a rival group to Hamas, announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza. "I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza." Sheik Saqer has asserted that there is "no need" for Christians in Gaza to maintain Christian institutions and demanded that Hamas "must work to impose an Islamic rule or it will lose the authority it has and the will of the people."

In October 2007, Rami Khader Ayyad, owner of Gaza's only Christian bookstore, was abducted, beaten and murdered, after his bookstore was firebombed by an unidentified group attacking targets associated with Western influence. According to Ayyad's family and neighbors, he had regularly received anonymous death threats from people angered by his missionary work.

Now listen to me very closely. Some of you have all of these grand ideas, yet you never donned a uniform and stood up for anything. You sit in your ivory towers and condemn those who at least try to do something. Even with the recent child immigration issue, how many of you made donations to Catholic Charities to help. Oh everyone had an opinion, yet one again you sat on your hands. What a fine bunch of hypocrites.

I readily admit I don't seem to have the education that so many of you have. I admit I have brain trauma and suffer from PTSD. But you know something, I stood up for our country and my beliefs in combat and as a police officer. I may not be as smart as you, but at least I had the courage to try.

A couple of final thoughts, I never want to see another reference to napalming or deliberately firing on Vietnamese again. We have a Vietnamese refugee on here and you should at least think about how such phrases might hurt her. Now listen to me closely, “I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

... A couple of final thoughts, I never want to see another reference to napalming or deliberately firing on Vietnamese again. We have a Vietnamese refugee on here and you should at least think about how such phrases might hurt her. Now listen to me closely, “I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”

Then don't look, boy. Apparently you pick and choose which parts of the Constitution you'll defend and you don't include the 1st Amendment. Considering you've been shot when you let your guard down during a routine traffic stop and your body armor saved you life, your bravado falls flat. If you don't want to be insulted, don't use insulting language with others here, not even generically. You're no longer psychologically stabile enough to determine when you; or, anyone else has been wronged. Don't wear out your welcome here by giving others ultimatums and making yourself intolerably irritating. Try to lay down requirements here again and I'll not only lock your heels, I'll shove them up your ass. The golden rule is now in effect for you, has-been.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by BigV

Sarge-

Fuck you, you ignorant, hypocritical piece of shit.

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Way to take it to a personal level with the name calling.

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Grow a set of stones and quit whining about the little stuff.

Saying I'm a whiny eunch is personal level of name calling. If you dish it out, you're gonna get it right back at you.
Now that we got that out of the way--

I asked you this:

Originally Posted by BigV

Would you feel the same "it's nothing" if it were your daughters who were killed? If your answer is yes, then I will have nothing to do with you, ever again.

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Anyway, I'd be devastated if my children died.

I am unsurprised and relived by your answer. OF COURSE you'd be devastated. OF COURSE.

So please, please tell me how things are different for the children in Gaza, for the parents in Gaza. How can you say "it's nothing"??? Show me, use small words if you think that's all I will understand, explain to me why they hypothetical loss of your children would be devastating but the real loss of innocent fucking children, but in Gaza, "is nothing".

[Undertoad]

please tell me how things are different for the children in Gaza, for the parents in Gaza

Certainly,

You are appealing to a philosophy that the Islamists do not share.

If you made that argument to them here is what you'd get in return. They would like for their children to die for this cause. It's the fast road to heaven for them. This is not an isolated statement:

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by sexobon

You're no longer psychologically stabile enough to determine when you; or, anyone else has been wronged. Don't wear out your welcome here by giving others ultimatums and making yourself intolerably irritating. Try to lay down requirements here again and I'll not only lock your heels, I'll shove them up your ass. The golden rule is now in effect for you, has-been.

If you are man enough, then do it. I don't ask for special treatment. I have no qualms with meeting you any day. If you wish to question my mental stability, then you are welcome to diagnose it in person.

[sexobon]

Proposing IRL confrontation is unacceptable here. JBKlyde was banned for it. People have been cutting you slack because of your past record of public service. Don't disgrace that record by trying to commit suicide by sexobon. It's bad enough that you're a burned out alcoholic now.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by sexobon

snip--
Try to lay down requirements here again and I'll not only lock your heels, I'll shove them up your ass. The golden rule is now in effect for you, has-been.

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

If you are man enough, then do it. I don't ask for special treatment. I have no qualms with meeting you any day. If you wish to question my mental stability, then you are welcome to diagnose it in person.

Originally Posted by sexobon

Proposing IRL confrontation is unacceptable here. JBKlyde was banned for it. People have been cutting you slack because of your past record of public service. Don't disgrace that record by trying to commit suicide by sexobon.

It's you, sexobon, who's proposed IRL confrontation; it's you, sexobon, who's threatened physical violence. It's you, sexobon, who courts banning for shit like this. I find you intolerable; I welcome your banning. In the meantime, I ignore you. I find your posts mostly irritating like your deliberate misuse of the golden rule here. You're an unhelpful troll of the first order, and a particularly mean one to boot. I don't miss you when your posts don't display, I won't miss you when you stop making them altogether.

[Undertoad]

Oh hey, ha ha, remember back when I was merely asking for a better conversation? A more adult way to talk about this stuff? ha ha those good old days

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Certainly,

You are appealing to a philosophy that the Islamists do not share.

If you made that argument to them here is what you'd get in return. They would like for their children to die for this cause. It's the fast road to heaven for them. This is not an isolated statement:

I'm not making that argument. Sarge (and others here) are making that argument (THEY are death-loving killers). I'm asking for the justification by those making that argument. I'm asking the people who are doing the killing, or those who support those who are doing the killing to explain to me why that's ok. Your post of an angry, stupid person with a microphone does not explain why the "precision-guided" weapons of the Israelis are killing little kids. It doesn't explain why the loss of Sarge's kids would be devastating and the loss of Palestinian kids "is nothing".

What the fuck happened to Israeli agency? Are they the impotent puppets of fuckwit Muhammad Deif? That's your explanation? If a gunman has his pistol to the head of a hostage and he's hiding behind the hostage, do you shoot through the hostage to kill the gunman??? What the fucking fuck?