Is there free will in heaven?

[Undertoad]

If I see that a giant boulder is falling down a mountain towards your house, I feel it's my responsibility to warn you. If the boulder turns out to be a pebble, or takes a course away from your house, that's fine. I did what I thought was right.

Nood, I think your belief system is full of shit. But I'm telling you this because I *care*.

Ain't I so damn thoughtful??

You are welcome!!!

[mrnoodle]

Not really. If you were actually warning me, sure. But the only thing you're warning me about is looking stupid in front of people who don't share my beliefs. In their eyes, I crossed that line long ago anyway. Oh, look, a bible verse:

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. - J.C.

Going in, I knew that the majority of people would think I was full of shit. If I didn't believe something strongly, would I deliberately open myself to ridicule? It'd be way easier to jump on the anti-christian bandwagon. I had 30 years of practice, I'm as good at it as you are.

as i said before, i find it appalling that people who's opinions I normally respect......break down and fall back on "faith" as their argument. faith is not an argument. faith is believing something that you can't prove. While I can;t prove them wrong. my position is at least as valid as theirs. why can;t we just say " i dunno?"
neither of you two have said ...hey, yeah, your idea is just as good as mine. I've repeated that several times now. respect me, and i'll respect you.

Why is faith a "fall-back"? It's not a step below intellectual thought, nor is it exclusive of it. They compliment each other. Try looking at the whole concept with an open mind instead of coloring your investigation with childhood disappointments and anger at "the church".
Incidentally, the Vatican has done more damage to the message of Christ than any other single entity in the history of the world, IMO.
I guess the reason we can't meet in the middle on this, LJ, is that there is no middle to it. All belief systems are not equal. If I feel something is wrong, I can't say it's right. That being said, I don't think you are less of a person for believing what you believe. I think you are probably more intelligent than I am (no sarcasm). Your argument makes more sense than mine does, from a humanist's standpoint. But that's just it, I'm not a humanist. I'm a Christian. Humanists can't ever see worship as more than a quaint hobby (you can do whatever, just don't scare the horses), and believers can't ever see it as less than the meaning of life. Just the way it is, I guess.

[Undertoad]

That's cold man.

I don't care about you looking silly, I care about you wasting your life.

[lumberjim]

i never asked you to believe that what i think is right. i just ask that you believe that it is POSSIBLE. That's how i feel about christianity. it's possible. no more. no less.


faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, you're right.

However, to say something is true because you believe it is elementally wrong. you can believe something because it is true, but not the other way 'round. no one can really say for sure what is and is not true of the after life. can you?

[richlevy]

Originally posted by lumberjim
i never asked you to believe that what i think is right. i just ask that you believe that it is POSSIBLE. That's how i feel about christianity. it's possible. no more. no less.


faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, you're right.

However, to say something is true because you believe it is elementally wrong. you can believe something because it is true, but not the other way 'round. no one can really say for sure what is and is not true of the after life. can you?

Faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, but faith and proof are. If something has been proved, we no longer need to have faith in it. Faith is the existence of belief despite the abscence of proof.

I have a few devout Christian friends. We even sometimes discuss religion. However, most of the time we keep our faiths to ourselves.

Having someone constantly tell you how happy they are with their religion is like having someone constantly tell you how happy they are with their car/clothes/hair/house/job etc. - annoying.

It gets even more annoying when they tell you that you should get the same religion car/clothes/hair/house/job etc.

I gets really, really, annoying when they torture you until you promise to get the same religion car/clothes/hair/house/job etc.

It was very sad that Jesus died. It was even sadder that his followers were persecuted. It was very sad when said followers got into power and hunted down the decendants of Jesus in the name of Jesus.

It was even sadder when the followers of Christians fought Christians for hundreds of years and laid waste to vast stretches of Europe.

Almost every organized religion existing in the world is a 'survivor'. In general, this means that in order to survive they may have done things that do not quite fit with a perfect view of the world. (Pope Innocent IV's authorization of torture for the 1st Inquisition comes to mind).

So it should be understandable that people are leery of religion and of the religious. Because while it is wonderful that individuals are looking inward, finding God, and changing themselves, the trouble starts when they look outward, see everyone else and say "But enough about me, let's see how I can make you better".

[xoxoxoBruce]

So it should be understandable that people are leery of religion and of the religious. Because while it is wonderful that individuals are looking inward, finding God, and changing themselves, the trouble starts when they look outward, see everyone else and say "But enough about me, let's see how I can make you better".

That’s why many people differentiate between being religious and having faith. I work with a lot of double belly buttons (reborns), that act like they just discovered the vending machine was giving double your money back. They are so thrilled that they want to share the wealth and insist you do it too. They don’t want to control you, they just want you to share their euphoria. Annoying? Yes, but not in a malicious way, more like a kid that just learned the word “why”.

As long as you believe Jesus is your savior, you're ok. If you've never heard of him, ....well, you're fucked.

No, if you never heard of him you’re cool. You’ll be given a chance to get on board at Armageddon. If you’ve heard of and rejected him, then you’re fucked.

[lumberjim]

why is it so important to jesus that we believe in him before we die. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the bible is true, and it's thumpers are correct. unlikely, i think, but anything is possible. If, when I die, it turns out that it IS true, and i've lived my life as a good person, and have a clear conscience, why can;t I accept Jesus when I meet him, and he tells me that "yes" he's the son of GOD, and "yes, there IS a god...that's him over there....."...??? what is it about the faith, and worship that qualifies you as eligible for eternal bliss?


how can a god sentence you to the proper place for eternity based on 50-70 years of life on earth?

[mrnoodle]

I have a few devout Christian friends. We even sometimes discuss religion. However, most of the time we keep our faiths to ourselves.

I abide by this principle at most times (except forum threads on religion).

why is it so important to jesus that we believe in him before we die.

Everyone has heard of John 3:16, but the verses following it are equally important. They are Jesus' words to Nicodemus (a member of the Jewish ruling council - a 'religious' man in every sense of the word*). Bear with me, it all applies:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
Reader's Digest version: we are separated from God because of sin. In our imperfection, we are unable to bridge the gap through any good thing we do. So, God sent a sinless replacement to pay the penalty for our wrongdoing, thus bridging the gap. The only thing we have to do to is believe that it's true. The preceding example is only one of many. You actually have to read the bible to "get" it - any quote I provide needs the context of the whole work to make complete sense. I'll put my money where my mouth is. I'll mail a bible, free of charge, to anyone who asks for one. Just pm me. I don't have any money right now, but I'll dig one up for anyone who will read it willingly, and with an open mind. If you think I'm some kind of TV preacher selling snake oil, you're wrong. Look at any of my other posts on any subject - I've been honest about my views, whether they align with Christianity or not. Am I a hypocrite? Yep. And a liar, and greedy, and lustful. And everything else bad. But I have a goal I aspire to, no matter how badly I miss it.

If, when I die, it turns out that it IS true, and i've lived my life as a good person, and have a clear conscience, why can;t I accept Jesus when I meet him, and he tells me that "yes" he's the son of GOD, and "yes, there IS a god...that's him over there....."...??? what is it about the faith, and worship that qualifies you as eligible for eternal bliss?

You can't have it both ways. If I spend my life rejecting God because I think Christianity takes away my freedom of choice, I can't complain to him at the end of my life because his word turned out to be true and I didn't believe it. You want choice or not?

[lumberjim]

so WHY is it so important for christians to believe? you showed me where is says it. I already knew it to be true. I said WHY?
In your own words.

You can't have it both ways. If I spend my life rejecting God because I think Christianity takes away my freedom of choice, I can't complain to him at the end of my life because his word turned out to be true and I didn't believe it. You want choice or not?

And I wasn't saying I reject God. In my question, I have led a good life. One that otherwise aligns with the christian ( and most other religions, btw) tenents. I simply reserve judgement on what will come after this life until I get there. Why must I be damned to an eternity of hell for being rational?

I have to tell you that I've asked this questions of christians before and the answer is always " that's just how it is" If what I have described IS true, and the christian God WOULD damn me just for not believing in Jesus based on what is written in a bible that I don't trust to be the original message, then ......

I guess I expect GOD to be nicer.

[lumberjim]

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

perhaps the above ods are accurate. and there is a 50/50 chance that there is something after. one half chance that you DO go toward the light, which is the light at the end of the birth canal, and your next life, and one that you do NOT go toward the light, and there is no afterlife. You;re just gone

[Undertoad]

There is a much better explanation for why belief via faith is a required component of this religion: because it would be the one thing that would really cause the religion to last over time.

Just look at which ideas disappear quickly and which continue to travel around.

There are many competing ideas about how the universe was created, because Man cannot STAND to "not know". The unanswerable questions are terrible for us human begins. Our curiosity is innate. So there have always been fairy tales and stories about how it all came to be. And some of the stories had to last.

An idea, a notion, whether it's true or false, requires things in order to remain in our collective consciousness over time. For example, it has to be utterly important. It has to have personal consequences for the [non-]believer. Christianity achieves this by making it the most critical decision you can possibly make: not only does it affect your life, but your afterlife as well. You can watch people on the Cellar offering up those odds plainly: the price of not believing might be very grave indeed. If I care about you I pass along this information. Thus the information is passed along, without regard for its truth. In the face of all kinds of opposing evidence, such as the fossil record and our discoveries about space, the only way for the idea to survive is to discuss it outside the realm of logic and facts. And voila, so it is.

A notion requires a complete narrative and drama. This kind of drama is why urban legends are passed along: they are compelling as stories. Without the right kind of drama, they are not passed along and don't survive. And voila, so there is narrative, drama, and characters in the religions that have lasted. The characters are humanized as much as possible even when their form is unknowable. This is necessary in order for the ideas to last.

The ideas also have to subtlely change over time in order to last, so a certain degree of flexibility is required. The way we think Christianity works today is entirely and totally different form how we thought it worked 1000 years ago. Can this possibly be true? No, but if it still worked how it worked then, it would not last. Voila biblical interpretation: the orders of religion change along with the society. When the people demand change, someone will bang up a new list of rules on a door and the rules people prefer will be the ones that last.

In fact there have been competing religions all along and by this point, only the ones that have these kinds of attributes have survived. That in turn tells you an awful lot about the religions.

[lumberjim]

True enough, UT. You and I can see the real reason that faith is a requirement.

It has to have personal consequences for the [non-]believer. Christianity achieves this by making it the most critical decision you can possibly make: not only does it affect your life, but your afterlife as well.

If you don't do what we tell you to, not only will you suffer in this life, but for all of eternity.

I was interested in hearing the answer from a believer. What explanation have they been given, that they found to be acceptable enough to be the cornerstone of their religion?

The Bible says so?

[Slartibartfast]

Religion and faith at their best are the fires that drive people like Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, and Saint Francis.

From a Catholic perspective, a follower of Jesus is not supposed to just lead a good life, they are supposed to lead a saintly life as exemplified by someone like Mother Teresa. She may not be officially a saint, but I use her as an example because she is well known and her life speaks for itself. She is an example of the kind of demands Jesus in the Bible asks of those who would follow him. Most Christians fall a bit short, no? Faith is a way of drawing strength from God when human strength would fail.

Lumberjim asks why are we supposed to have faith. Faith is supposed to make us more than what we are without it. That is why it is so badly needed.

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
Faith is supposed to make us more than what we are without it. That is why it is so badly needed.

so it's motivation. But, if something is right, it's right....right? Belief in GOD makes you want to strive toward being as godlike as you can. I'm all for that. Faith because you HAVE to or you'll burn in hell doesn;t work for me.

Spiritual people are spiritual people. the details are irrelevant, and often harmful.

I say it is enough to live your life as a good person. when i'm elected god, i'll make sure everyone knows that.

[Undertoad]

Ghandi was however lacking the right *kind* of faith and therefore, according to your belief system, is currently roasting.