Who Supports the War(s)

[Cairo]

Sycamore,
I only asked my husband to weigh in because these clowns have no idea what a true right winger is, or what History before liberal revising manipulation is....I thought they deserved it.

Vermin, I guess, would be unwelcome, uninvited intruders, like cockroaches.

1991, he meant to hit the one.

Our forces killed bin Laden during the attack on Tora Bora. Bin Laden is dead, but Al Qaeda is not.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Cairo
I only asked my husband to weigh in because these clowns have no idea what a true right winger is, or what History before liberal revising manipulation is....I thought they deserved it.

So, based upon your above statement, are you saying that history as many folks know it (and I mean straight up facts here, e.g. "Israel became a state in 1948.") has been manipulated by liberals?

Vermin, I guess, would be unwelcome, uninvited intruders, like cockroaches.

Hmmm...interesting. Who were the unwelcome, uninvited intruders? Cockroaches? Locusts? Evil Christian missionaries?

Our forces killed bin Laden during the attack on Tora Bora. Bin Laden is dead, but Al Qaeda is not.

Bin Laden is dead?

Are you serious?

Stop playing.

That's some pretty big talk there...I suppose you have the sources to back that up, right?

Go for it...this should be neat.

[Cam]

I'm excited, why the hell didn't our government announce this. It would surly have helped raise support for the current administration. I know I'd be more apt to agree with what Bush says in the future if this was true. Actually accomplishing what he said(first) was the primary reason for the invasion of Afganistan would certainly make him more credible in my eyes.


okay I'm having trouble with my browser, can't seem to get the quote button to work :~(. So anyways

Original posted by jaguar
"I was trying to match Ciaro's creativity on Iraq - this was the best i could do: this gem of sanity"

This was great, much needed humor after a night of studying :~).

[elSicomoro]

Once again Cam, you are being an unamerican SOB. Don't you know that the media is controlled by liberal pukes who would love nothing more than to cover up the truth to try and bring Dubya down?

[Cam]

Damn it, I really do need to move to Canada, It's not that far, and Winnepeg has a pretty good University, and I have family up there, though they live Alberta, one hell of a long drive. I would get free health care, one of my biggest worries, especially with all the fucking loans I'm going to have.

Then again if I move to Canada, it makes my next birthday the same as any other(21). I'd have to actually learn about hockey, not just go to the games and cheer everyone else. I'd never be able to say "canadians are stupid" again(though "americans are stupid" would become a fun phrase). I'd have to learn the words to "O' Canada. And I'd have to learn about the Canadian government(something I really should do anyway).

Well I've listed all the pros and cons I can come up with this close to bed, it's up to you members of the cellar to help me make my decision, Should cam move to Canada, or should he stay right here in the USA.

[Cairo]

Hermit22,
Saying,"So does Israel." in response to my assertion that Iraq has broken U.N resolutions that carry a penalty of "use of force" is flat out untrue! In all your "subjective" "unbiased" "fair and balanced" research, you failed to comprehend the difference between Charter 6 and Charter 7.
Charter 6 is non-comparable because everybody breaks Charter 6 resolutions. Israel has never thumbed her nose and disobeyed a Charter 7 resolution...Iraq has!

http://users.otenet.gr/~prof/UNcharter.htm

Truth is black and white, it's either true or it's not. Propaganda and agendas are what drives the cloudy, indecisive, uneducated, ignorant, dissenting, and radicals to make the truth appear grey or unclear when it's not.
Pre-war is getting troops into position and devising a plan or strategy. During war is what we are doing now. Post war is clean up and rebuild.

Hooked on phonics could work for you! Comprehension 101 wouldn't hurt either. You have more years in school? That means only that you have more Liberal Socialist indoctrination and brainwashing than I do...and you're ~bragging~????? Oh, I know, you skipped Comprehension 101 to take How to use a condom 101...Right? Puuulease!

Lenin was a Socialist, he was about to install a Parliment system of Government that would stop the Communist trend, so Stalin had him killed before he did it.

Every time you spread misinformation and lie about the Patriot Act, FISC, or hinder our Government's ability to protect and keep US safe, you are, by proxy, infringing upon the Right To Life of 3,000+ American citizens.

That tape was not bin Laden. Or do you limit your current events to only one source?

The Czech Republic says there is an Iraqi/Al Qaeda link. And everybody agrees there are many Saddam/terrorist links.

Your credibility in debate is linked to my interest to keep replying to you...if all you have are lies or ignorance to bring to the table, I lose interest and become bored(as I have with tw). It's just not fun to debate with an un-armed man.

I never said "single-minded", again, comprehension is key! Oh, you have no problem with having an impeached President so morally bankrupt that he refuses to be accountable and step down. Who looks into the eyes of the American people and lies when he didn't have to. Who committed perjury and obstruction...and people like you keep begging for more! No wonder he thought he was above the law and could get away with it, your ilk make it easy!
HA! Eloquent L I A R !
Well, if you think talking down to you is more impressive than talking to you, you must love Algore! Personally, I'm more of an actions speak louder than words kinda gal.

[Cairo]

Sycamore and Cam,
How lovely! I really hate to pull you two apart from this little tongue in each other's cheek fest you've got going on....

BUT, revisionary History...I'm sure you've heard of it? Such as revising the Bible so it's more gender friendly, revising Texas History so it doesn't hurt hispanic children's feelings, revising that Thomas Jefferson raped and produced children with a slave, when DNA proved otherwise...the anti-Israel and "Palestinians" falsehoods stated on this board alone is proof of liberal manipulation as most people know it.

I can tell you how I reached my opinion that bin Laden is dead...
Bin Laden's signals and messages are very important to the survival of Al Qaeda. Bin Laden speaks and shows his face, recruitment goes up and money flows in. After the Tora Bora attack moral and recruitment fell, Al Qaeda needed bin Laden to energize the base as he always did. Bin Laden is too smart, too egotistical, and too "pay back time" oriented to pass up the biggest opportunity of his life to plaster his face all over the media announcing to the world and his followers that the US infidels are no match for Allah, and as Allah protected him and made the West miss him, so shall He protect them. The West didn't miss him, so we heard nothing. Now, Al Qaeda has had time to fake that moment of importance, but in reality, the moment has passed.
Also a captured member of Al Qaeda slipped up and referred to bin Laden in the past tense, he quickly recovered, but the initial acknowledgment was his thought.
Some in the US Govt. think the tape is real, some think it's a fake, France, of all people, thinks it's fake, as does countless voice experts.

Yes Cam, you really should learn about the Canadian Government...their "healthcare" is not free, but it is bankrupt and outdated. How about the freakin' 70% of your income they steal? Try figuring out how you're going to live, eat, survive on 30% of your hard earned dollar...maybe you could just live in the Hospital using your "free" healthcare!!!! LOL...

[hermit22]

Originally posted by Cairo
Hermit22,
Saying,"So does Israel." in response to my assertion that Iraq has broken U.N resolutions that carry a penalty of "use of force" is flat out untrue! In all your "subjective" "unbiased" "fair and balanced" research, you failed to comprehend the difference between Charter 6 and Charter 7.
Charter 6 is non-comparable because everybody breaks Charter 6 resolutions. Israel has never thumbed her nose and disobeyed a Charter 7 resolution...Iraq has!

http://users.otenet.gr/~prof/UNcharter.htm

That is utter and complete bullshit. You want to argue legal without knowing what you're talking about? I'm not an expert in international law, but I think I can find a few things in just a few moments.

So which article of Chapter 7 are you referring to? Would it be article 39, which points out the right of the United Nations to determine the status of peace. Now let's take a Resolution at random from the list of resolutions that involve Israel. I was originally going to use the Litani River Project, but I figured that you would apply your ridiculous 'liberals rewrote history' whine. So I'll stay contemporary. I'm going to focus on SCRes 1402 for you, which called on both sides to take steps to end the escalation in conflict. It specifically called on Israel to withdraw its troops from Palestinian cities, but Israel did not comply in anything like an expedited manner.
You really do not understand the difference between Chapter 6 and Chapter 7, do you? Chapter 6 deals with "disputes," Chapter 7 with the "breach of peace." Go ahead and try to argue that there have been no Security Council Resolutions regarding Israel that deal with breaches of peace.

Of course, I do think it's amusing that a right-winger, who theoretically should disdain the liberal institutionalism that established the UN (you know, the whole realism vs. liberalism idea), uses the UN as a justification, even if they're wrong in their argument.


Fair and balanced would be the lying mantra of your side's media network. But hey, repeat it enough and it's true, right? Isn't that what you're saying happened before the liberal corruption of history? Apparently it is fair and balanced to call an entire population vermin. Whatever. Go look up the etimology of the word Semitism, and you'll realize you're an 'anti-Semite.'

Truth is black and white, it's either true or it's not.

Too bad you're proving yourself to be colorblind.

Pre-war is getting troops into position and devising a plan or strategy. During war is what we are doing now. Post war is clean up and rebuild.

Oh right. There's only 3 phases to any conflict. How would you describe Kashmir? How about Columbia? Has Israel been at war since 1967? Can you see how ridiculous this assumption is?

Of course, this does assume that every action a state engages in has something to do with war. No peace here.

Hooked on phonics could work for you! Comprehension 101 wouldn't hurt either. You have more years in school? That means only that you have more Liberal Socialist indoctrination and brainwashing than I do...and you're ~bragging~????? Oh, I know, you skipped Comprehension 101 to take How to use a condom 101...Right? Puuulease!

Hooked on phonics would work for me? Ok, I'm insulted. I guess that English minor I picked up when I was an undergrad was meaningless. Thank you for pointing it out. With that, and your revelation about bin Laden's life, it seems that your insight is so incredible that there's no way I could fight its power.

Yup, I'm bragging about having more school. I'm bragging about trying to become an active member of society. I'm proud of my accomplishments. Of course, you don't know what I studied as an undergrad, the quality of the education, or the political leanings of my professors (or if that was even a relevant issue). I was a Computer Science major with a Creative Writing minor. After graduation, I jumped into a National Security Studies master's program in which most of the professors (4 of the core 5) are lifelong Republicans. So the "brainwashing" by the "Liberal Socialist" system would be difficult to prove.

Maybe you should get some more education. It might open your mind up a bit. And have you forgotten that your husband had to be "indoctrinated," as you call it, in order to become a teacher?

Your "Comprehension 101" comment made me laugh, though. There's no way you could have known that I got over a 700 on the reading portion of my SATs. (I don't remember the exact score as that was probably 10 years ago.) Of course I'm not going to instantly comprehend everything I see - no one does. But I think more of the problem lies in your ability to communicate effectively.

At least I know how to protect myself from HIV and the risk of helping increase the world's overabundant population.

Lenin was a Socialist, he was about to install a Parliment system of Government that would stop the Communist trend, so Stalin had him killed before he did it.

Uh no. One of the things Lenin wanted to do was give the Kazakhs, and a few others that were revolting and being oppressed, some autonomy. (Unusual, of course, for Lenin to have a problem with mass murder. He read as much Heinzen as Hitler. And it's a lot more complicated than that, but I don't care enough to be more specific.) You may be talking about his expansion of the Central Committee, or the granting of legislative powers to the Central Planning Commission - both of which already existed and were not an establishment of a new Duma.

Every time you spread misinformation and lie about the Patriot Act, FISC, or hinder our Government's ability to protect and keep US safe, you are, by proxy, infringing upon the Right To Life of 3,000+ American citizens.

I'm pretty sure I've never mentioned the Patriot Act or FISC in this discussion.

So are only 3,000+ citizens worthy of the right to live (and yes, I notice your thinly veiled reference to the abortion debate, and I think it's preposterous). I realize that you are trying to make a reference to the deaths on September 11 to sensationalize the matter. But you don't have any substance - assuming of course that you realize you are essentially advocating the elimination of freedom of speech (not forcibly, but by some sense of guilt or shame).

That tape was not bin Laden. Or do you limit your current events to only one source?

Nope. I'm well aware that a Swiss lab says that there are problems with the tape - which you didn't bother mentioning in defense. Instead, you merely claimed, without calling upon any source for proof, that you knew that bin Laden was alive. However, when the US government claimed that the tape was bin Laden (which it was not alone in doing), it mentioned that the tape had been transferred over a telephone line, which could be responsible for the wave analysis problems the Swiss lab found. I don't know; I don't claim to be an expert in such manners. But I would posit that more signs point to bin Laden being alive than dead. That whole no body thing is a big deal. I equate it to a murder investigation. Police don't assume that a suspected murderer (and before you jump on me for saying suspected, realize that I'm relying on a social convention, not an assumption that bin Laden is not guilty. It would be unsurprising to see you attempt to distort that into some frm of collusion with terrorists or some other bs.) is dead simply because they attacked his hideout, burnt it to the ground, and couldn't find any trace of his body in the ashes. They especially don't drop the investigation when a tape recording claiming to be him is confirmed to actually be him by their own crime lab.

The Czech Republic says there is an Iraqi/Al Qaeda link. And everybody agrees there are many Saddam/terrorist links.

Everybody, huh? Who constitutes this everybody? And do you really think that the Bush administration would not be beating the war drums of an al Qaeda connection if it was there? They dropped it as soon as reporters began investigating their claims, which was that a lone Iraqi official met with a single member of al Qaeda in Prague. It didn't hold water then, and trying to bring it up now does not either.

Your credibility in debate is linked to my interest to keep replying to you...if all you have are lies or ignorance to bring to the table, I lose interest and become bored(as I have with tw). It's just not fun to debate with an un-armed man.

Well, your credibility is linked to your ability to respond without basing your argument in insults, generalizations without any substance and misrepresentations of the truth.

I never said "single-minded", again, comprehension is key! Oh, you have no problem with having an impeached President so morally bankrupt that he refuses to be accountable and step down. Who looks into the eyes of the American people and lies when he didn't have to. Who committed perjury and obstruction...and people like you keep begging for more! No wonder he thought he was above the law and could get away with it, your ilk make it easy!
HA! Eloquent L I A R !
Well, if you think talking down to you is more impressive than talking to you, you must love Algore!

If comprehension is key, then you threw yours away long ago. My point was that Clinton is a better speaker than Bush will ever be, which you didn't bother to refute (mostly because it would be too difficult, I'm assuming.) The great thing about Clinton is that he did talk to you. The bad thing about Bush is that he acts like he doesn't have to be bothered to learn the speech well enough to deliver it to the public. And that's even worse than talking down to me.

Yes, I like Al Gore - I have no complex about an intelligent man. I'm not sure he should run for President again, but I like many of his political ideas. And I view the entire Lewinsky fiasco to be an example of the character assassination certain political forces were engaged in. They could not get the American public to respond to much of Clinton's inadequacies as President (and yes, I believe there were many), so they tried to overblow a relatively trivial, and definately private event; a moral indescretion that he was not alone in committing.

Personally, I'm more of an actions speak louder than words kinda gal.

I can't pass up this opportunity to show you the inadequacy of your association of extremists with the mainstream.

"Actions speak louder than words" is practically a direct quote from Carlo Piscane, who was influential in Brousse's development of the idea of "propaganda by the deed:" the idea that revolutionaries can not rely simply on words to spread their propaganda. India's HSRA followed this with the "philosophy of the bomb," which said that the best action to use was the employment of bombs. And modern terrorism was born when the Narodnaya Volya incorporated these two ideas.

So does this mean you're a terrorist kinda gal?

[hermit22]

Originally posted by Cairo
Sycamore and Cam,
How lovely! I really hate to pull you two apart from this little tongue in each other's cheek fest you've got going on....

The examples of Cairo's propensity to base her arguments on insults abound.

BUT, revisionary History...I'm sure you've heard of it? Such as revising the Bible so it's more gender friendly, revising Texas History so it doesn't hurt hispanic children's feelings, revising that Thomas Jefferson raped and produced children with a slave, when DNA proved otherwise...the anti-Israel and "Palestinians" falsehoods stated on this board alone is proof of liberal manipulation as most people know it.

Nice misrepresentation of a few examples. Revising the Bible to make it gender neutral (not gender friendly) does not change the meaning. I would argue that it enhances God's image, because it places God above the differences in gender. I'm agnostic and I can see that.

IIRC, the Texas history that was revised demonized Santa Anna and his men, and did not explain the situations surrounding the war for Texan independence. Revising the textbooks to reflect the truth is generally not a bad thing.

The Jefferson thing made me laugh. Do you realize that you contradicted yourself? History hasn't taught that Jefferson fathered children with any slaves. Evidence arose to the contrary, and the debate that began was whether or not to [i]revise[/] history to include this fact. So which is it? Do you like revisionism or hate it? Also, where's your proof that Thomas Jefferson raped his slaves? You don't know that he didn't have a relationship with a slave. Or were you there too?

I'm tired of talking about I/P to you.

I can tell you how I reached my opinion that bin Laden is dead...
Bin Laden's signals and messages are very important to the survival of Al Qaeda. Bin Laden speaks and shows his face, recruitment goes up and money flows in. After the Tora Bora attack moral and recruitment fell, Al Qaeda needed bin Laden to energize the base as he always did. Bin Laden is too smart, too egotistical, and too "pay back time" oriented to pass up the biggest opportunity of his life to plaster his face all over the media announcing to the world and his followers that the US infidels are no match for Allah, and as Allah protected him and made the West miss him, so shall He protect them. The West didn't miss him, so we heard nothing. Now, Al Qaeda has had time to fake that moment of importance, but in reality, the moment has passed.
Also a captured member of Al Qaeda slipped up and referred to bin Laden in the past tense, he quickly recovered, but the initial acknowledgment was his thought.
Some in the US Govt. think the tape is real, some think it's a fake, France, of all people, thinks it's fake, as does countless voice experts.

That's possible, but maybe he expected that reaction? Without him taking front stage, the West may ease its dilligence in trying to prevent terrorism, which will make his goals easier. In addition, no one is really sure what the power arrangement is inside al Qaeda. Maybe bin Laden is engaged in a power struggle that has stopped him from putting his face on television? Or maybe he's just in hiding? I think there are simply too many unanswered questions to claim knowledge of his status.

Yes Cam, you really should learn about the Canadian Government...their "healthcare" is not free, but it is bankrupt and outdated. How about the freakin' 70% of your income they steal? Try figuring out how you're going to live, eat, survive on 30% of your hard earned dollar...maybe you could just live in the Hospital using your "free" healthcare!!!! LOL...

Hmm...according to Yahoo Canada, the high end of the progressive tax scale is 29%. This is actually pretty comparable to the US tax scale. Care to revise your assessment?

[Undertoad]

I'm guessing one would get a stronger readership by breaking one's points up into smaller posts, too.

And avoiding all the name-calling and whatnot

Thankee

[Cam]

My Uncle that lives in canada seems to have no trouble eating. He doesn't work at any great paying job either, I believe he's driving trucks at the moment. My uncle also had open heart surgery in Canada, survived, and is doing fine. So obviously their outdated health care system isn't that bad.

Also your blatent statement about Bin Laden being dead, which I'm sure sounded like a stated fact to anyone who read it was a complete cairo deducation. You have no sources to back it up, just what cairo thinks. Which by the way seem to be how you back up all your arguments.

[slang]

<h5>Hermit22</h5>
Your posts are too long!!

Note: This is a joke. The irony of this comment is that I make rediculously long posts and should never comment on how long someone else's might be. This is not to be taken seriously, it is not intended to incite harsh replies. This is humor.

[hermit22]

Slang, you crack me up.

[Radar]

Originally posted by Griff
The CS Monitor reports thst the young are more likely to support an Iraqi conflict, than us old farts. Why? You'd think kids who grew up in the Clinton years would have a bit more cynicism.

First off the Christian Science Monitor is hardly a reputable and valid news source. Second Why would kids be cynical after growing up in the clinton years? I wasn't aware 8 years of unprecedented economic boom that had nothing to do with the previous president was something to be cynical about.

And people ARE cynical and don't believe a war mongering idiot like GWB who has yet to provide a single link between Al Queda and Iraq. Thus far Iraq has never attacked American soil, never helped anyone else attack American soil, never paid anyone to do it, and never harbored or supported those who have and not one shred of evidence has ever been given to the public to the contrary. And this is despite the fact that in 1991 America launched an unwarranted and illegal attack on Iraq and subsequently starved their people to death and kept life saving medicines from them. Iraq is a sovereign nation and doesn't answer to any other sovereign nation including America. America has no authority beyond our own borders and we aren't the boss or police of the world.

If GWB wants to send Americans to fight he MUST provide actual proof. And why is GWB so hot to start a war when he himself pulled every string he could to stay out of the Vietnam war? It’s because he's a hypocrite. When he does drugs it's a "youthful indiscretion" but when other people do it they must be locked in jail forever. When he's going to fight in a war, it must be avoided at all cost, but when he's not the guy in the trenches, it's just fine.

Iraq poses no threat and never has. Why isn't GWB going after Korea who just said they've got nukes? Why doesn't he go after an actual threat? Because he's a bully and like all bullies he wants to go after the weak.

I served in the military and I would never fight in this war or the one in 1991.

[Radar]

Hmm...according to Yahoo Canada, the high end of the progressive tax scale is 29%. This is actually pretty comparable to the US tax scale. Care to revise your assessment?

Actually Canada pays more money for their healthcare than America and they get substandard healthcare for their money. Many Canadians come to America for their serious operations because they don't want to wait long periods for lower quality medical care. Socialism is a failure each and every place it is tried including the holy grail of socialism...Sweden.

For the price people pay in Sweden for healthcare, I could get a new kidney every year in America.