Abortion Debate

[jinx]

Originally Posted by wolf

[struggle]Don't start abortion debate in IOTD thread ...[/struggle]

*I'm pro-abortion, FWIW, but I also believe life begins at conception, that there is no "right to privacy" in the constitution, Roe v. Wade should not have become the de facto law of the land, and you can't unfuck the virgin ... safe, legal abortion beats back alley butchery every time, oh and public funds should never pay for abortions ... shit. I started it.

Aside form these points, I'd also like to discuss this recent study linking legalized abortion to crime reduction;

Abstract:
We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to recent crime reductions. Crime began to fall roughly 18 years after abortion legalization. The 5 states that allowed abortion in 1970 experienced declines earlier than the rest of the nation, which legalized in 1973 with Roe v. Wade. States with high abortion rates in the 1970s and 1980s experienced greater crime reductions in the 1990s. In high abortion states, only arrests of those born after abortion legalization fall relative to low abortion states. Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime.

and criticism of that study by an African American group;

Project 21 members are concerned that the widespread acceptance of the conclusions of studies like "Legalized Abortion and Crime" could be used to resurrect population control plans similar to Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger's racist "Negro Project" of the 1930s. The "Negro Project" was created to reduce the size of black families so blacks would not overwhelm whites in number. Sanger sought to use birth control policies overall for the "weeding out of the unfit, or preventing the birth of defectives or of those who will become defectives."

[dar512]

Well, this ought 'a be good. *Gets out marshmallows*.

Let the flames begin.

[TheSnake]

I think crime comes largely from lack of parenting and a family structure. So, I can see how one could correlate abortions to reduced crime. In this case, the person who would have normally had the child and done a poor job in parenting is now killing it. However, this does not justify killing the baby. Since I believe that life begins at conception, I am pro-life for myself. I am, although, pro-choice for other people because I believe we should just live and let live. I wish other people would assume more responsibility and that way unwanted pregnancies would decline and so too would the abortions.

[Cyber Wolf]

I'm all for the 'viable outside the womb' verbage. I guess that would make me pro-choice for about the first half or so of the pregnancy and pro-life for the second half, althought I do have some reservations about the second half.

[headsplice]

Oy. I had a three hour discussion on the UofM campus about this with some hardcore pro-lifers. They had reasonable arguments, except for the fact that they based them all on the concept that we all had a 'natural' and shared moral outlook. They couldn't understand that the morality they believed in was socially constructed.

[Pie]

Until the day that there is 100% infallable birth control, I am 100% pro choice. After that day, I'll re-evaluate my stance.

No, abstinance doesn't count. Rape still causes pregnancies.

A child should be a choice -- a positive one, not a negative one!

- Pie

[ladysycamore]

Originally Posted by Pie

Until the day that there is 100% infallable birth control, I am 100% pro choice. After that day, I'll re-evaluate my stance.

Amen. Choice, choice, choice! Pro-choice, childfree by choice...choices is what makes this country great...well, as good as it's gonna get (since nothing is perfect).

[DanaC]

Compel a woman to carry a child to term and you reduce her in effect to an incubator. I can totally understand the distress abortion causes to those who disagree with it. It's not a pretty thing and the manner in which it is carried out often leaves a lot to be desired ....once a feotus ( or baby) is capable of experiencing pain then precautions must be taken to ensure the abortion is painless and swift but we should not confuse a working set of nerves with a consiousness.

It's a tough one really and even someone who is ardently pro choice as I am, would no doubt be much moved by the sight of an aborted feotus which displays the beginnings of life in movement. At no point though should that little life take precedence over the woman's bodily freedoms. As beautiful and viable as that baby may be it is not yet a conscious being and should not be afforded rights at the expense of a thinking and feeling human.

[perth]

So when does consciousness start?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Pie

Until the day that there is 100% infallable birth control, I am 100% pro choice. After that day, I'll re-evaluate my stance.

No, abstinance doesn't count. Rape still causes pregnancies.

A child should be a choice -- a positive one, not a negative one!

- Pie

You know, I was reading this thread again, and even when there is 100% infallible birth control, unless the person uses it 100% of the time, it's not effective.

[elf]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

You know, I was reading this thread again, and even when there is 100% infallible birth control, unless the person uses it 100% of the time, it's not effective.

100% infalliable birth control would have to be not only perfectly effective, but as acceptable, accessable, and inexpensive as Tylenol. And you'd only have to take it one time, until the point in time when you wish to conceive - then you take a just-as-effective antidote.

If only. . .

[Undertoad]

Immediately after the abortion debate stops.

[DanaC]

"So when does consciousness start?"
Very good question. As I understand it the human baby starts to see itself as a self in some way around the age of 4 or 5 months ( though my recollection of the facts on this is not brilliant ;P) At first it sees itself and the world as one. When it moves the world moves. Eventually it works out that when it willls movement only it's hand ( for example) moves ratherthan the cot or surroundings and in such a way it realises it is an it and has limits.

Prior to that there must be some kind of consciousness but the nature of that is largely indeterminable. There is a definate point however at which the brain is receiving messages from the nervous system. I believe they have pretty much isoltaed the point at which that occurs but i dont recall how far along in the feotus' development that is.

[Trilby]

I have been to them all: Womyn's Rights Rally's...Take Back the Night, Herstory, you name it. I have tried to be a ''sister" --tho, not so much as a sister to, ya know, disinclude BROTHERS, ya know???

I like Brothers.


That being said: Abortion is an intensely private affair. Your reason for abortion may not be mine. There are all kinds of women...they're are all kinds of reasons for doing what we do--and hoping we are (at least to ourselves) true. I advocate compassionate listening to each side and admit a lot of things have been done in the wrong.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by xxxxxx

...
That being said: Abortion is an intensely private affair.
Your reason for abortion may not be mine.
There are all kinds of women.
..they're are all kinds of reasons for doing what we do ...
and hoping we are (at least to ourselves) true.
I advocate compassionate listening to each side and admit
a lot of things have been done in the wrong.

To Wit:
Texas Orders Health Clinics to Turn Over Patient Data
NY Times - TAMAR LEWIN - OCT. 23, 2015

Three days after Gov. Greg Abbott announced his decision to end Medicaid funding for Planned Parenthood,
state health department investigators showed up on Thursday at Planned Parenthood health centers
in Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Brownsville with orders to turn over thousands of pages of documents,
including patients’ records and employees’ home addresses and telephone numbers.

Some, but not all, of the extensive records sought by the state related specifically to abortion.
...

It's no longer a religious issue, it's G.O.P. political.
.