1/28: Truck stopper

[SeanAhern]

<rant>
You people are being pretty hard about all of this. I didn't realize that the culture of the Cellar was so damn critical. It appears that people have strong opinions about everything, no matter if they know the details or not.
</rant>

For those of you who are claiming that this device would be easy to bypass by running some lines around it, I have two things to say.

First, read the line from the <a href="http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/truckstoppingdevice.html">second article</a>:
<blockquote>
It is connected to the air lines of a truck or trailer in such a way that any attempt to clamp or block the air line to the TSD will cause the spring brakes to lock the wheels at all times.
</blockquote>
This says that if you tried to bypass the device by routing lines around it, and blocking the lines to the device, would cause the breaks to always engage. I can't tell you quite how they did that, since there are no details provided at any of the sites I was able to locate, but it tells me that the device is more than a blade attached to a paddle. And this leads directly to my second point.

Second, don't you think that the LLNL scientists have already thought of this? Why do you think that armchair engineers here on the Cellar who have just heard of this can come up with circumvention ideas that would blow it out of the water? I mean, I have no problem with people suggesting reasonable criticisms (and the issue of accidental deployment in an accident is a very worrisome one), but the gall to think that the engineers and physicists who did this are so clueless to not have thought of simple bypass mechanisms....just boggles my mind.

Finally, in response to the "nationwide epidemic of non-stopping trucks" question... Why does it have to be an epidemic? Several months ago, California governor Gray Davis said that there was a specific threat against California bridges. The worry was that one of them might be brought down during a rush hour, killing thousands of people. Also, according to http://www.llnl.gov/llnl/06news/News...ct_sheet.html:
<blockquote>
After a tractor-trailer crashed into the California state capitol in January 2001, Gov. Gray Davis asked the CHP to develop a plan to stop a stolen or hijacked fuel truck, which could potentially be used in a terrorist bombing.
</blockquote>
I refer you to http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/c...-1165450c.html and http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/02/inv.bridge.threat/ for more information about the threat.

You need to calm the fuck down.

I'm sure the engineers who designed it are pretty smart.

I'm also sure that there are people out there that are smarter.

The fact of the matter is, if it can be done, it can be undone. Period. Just like CSS, just like SDMI, just like every other thing out there where people thought "it's fool-proof" and "it's impossible to break". No. If it's put together, it can be taken apart. PERIOD.

Why do you feel the need to get so fucking offended? People speculate. I guarantee you that if this is set into motion, someone, somewhere, will figure out a circumvention device. That's what people do. That's why locks are picked. People like to solve puzzles. Even if the person is totally benign in their actions, other people can use it to do harm. This happens all the time, where one creation is used for the wrong purposes. Take the gun, for example. Or the crowbar. Or copyright law.

Honestly, I find it amazing that you believe everyone here is acting out of ignorance. "It appears that people have strong opinions about everything, no matter if they know the details or not." Hmm, kinda like someone bitching about someone else's opinion, not even bothering to ask if maybe they're a mechanical engineer? Or one who happens to study mechanical puzzles and designs to see their exploits, just for fun? You're no better, and you prove it with your post.

The only valid point you're able to muster is the fact that it <b>doesn't</b> need to be an epidemic. For creating the device, I applaud the engineers - it's probably a step in the right direction, even if we don't have an epidemic of non-stopping trucks. But the fact of the matter is, they said in the article that cops would engage it via a secret maneuver. Well, I'm sorry, but that's called "security through obscurity" and it's destined to fail. What makes you think that some crooked cop wouldn't do it? And that's under the ludicrous assumption that only cops could figure out how to do set it off. Are you seriously so naive as to think that there's no possible way someone else could set it off? Do you really think that the engineers designing this are the smartest people in the world and, in their OMNISCIENCE, have countered every single fucking way it could possibly be bypassed? Jesus the fucking Carpenter didn't build this, you know. It was done by a human and therefore is fallible.

[SeanAhern]

"Calm the fuck down".

Now there's a nice reasoned statement. One that I'm sure has gotten people to calm down for you in the past.
<blockquote>Honestly, I find it amazing that you believe everyone here is acting out of ignorance.</blockquote>
I guess it's not ignorance that I'm getting annoyed at. It's probably the attitude.

Of course this truck stopping thing isn't foolproof. Of course *someone* is going to find a way to get around it. But that's not quite the point.

It's just the attitudes that many people are using to suggest ways around it imply that the people who designed this are total, complete idiots. Who have no clue what they're doing and really could be shown the light of day if they just talked to a couple "intelligent" people.

And it's that attitude that leads me to the conclusion: "ignorance".

I have worked with LLNL physicists and engineers. They're some of the most intelligent and practical people that I've ever met, bar none. The idea that simple ideas like the ones mentioned here haven't occurred to them still very much surprises me.
<blockquote>
The fact of the matter is, they said in the article that cops would engage it via a secret maneuver. Well, I'm sorry, but that's called "security through obscurity" and it's destined to fail.
</blockquote>
I agree with you. The fact that more details about the design of the device are not available tells me that a good amount of secrecy is involved here.
<blockquote>
Are you seriously so naive as to think that there's no possible way someone else could set it off?
</blockquote>
Ahhh...yes. Calling me "seriously naive". And using absolutes like "no possible way". That's the attitude that I've come to expect from the Cellar.
<blockquote>
Do you really think that the engineers designing this are the smartest people in the world and, in their OMNISCIENCE, have countered every single fucking way it could possibly be bypassed?
</blockquote>
Of course not. And you know that I never claimed that. You're twisting what I said to a crazy absolute. All I really claimed was that you had better come up with something better than "run some hoses around it" before you think that you have the entire problem licked.

I'll continue to read posts on this thread, but I don't think I'm going to respond any more. This conversation isn't really going anywhere.

Please feel free to rip my posts apart.

Show me where I called you "seriously naive".

Or are you twisting my words around to a crazy absolute?

Ooh.

That's the attitude that I've come to expect from the Cellar.

If you don't like it, then why are you here?

Maybe, if you weren't so fucking condescending in your post, your point about "armchair speculation" would go over better. As it is, it sounds like you're on a high horse. You simply haven't proven yourself here, and you don't have a record of maybe making sarcastic or joking comments. Therefore, it looks like you're a holier-than-thou type. Those are generally unwelcome anywhere.

Perhaps, if you don't mean to be flamed, you should put a little more effort and thought into constructing your posts. All we have to judge you by here are your words. When they're condescending, that's how we'll picture you to be.

Welcome to the Cellar.

[Torrere]

I don't think that the Cellar people are saying that the engineers who designed this are idiots. I'd read it as them saying that the politicians who had this implemented are idiots.


--- Security by Obscurity.
--- Accidents.
--- it's going to be circumvented or abused by somebody

what did i forget up there?

Is it really necessary, does it do anything worthwhile, is the cost to the truckers (both installing it and the possibilty of having your truck shut down for 15 minutes on the highway) justifiable?

[tw]

kbarger asked about this slurry of 'out of control' trucks. It is a solution to a problem I just don't comprehend. For example, it would be useless against a truck intending on blowing up a bridge because you don't know about the truck until it is too late. Want to stop the truck? Nail strips to blow out the tires. Bullet in the radiator. I can appreciate the technology, but it appears to be a solution in search of a problem.

Those 3M dust filter masked came about by the same method. They also were a solution that searched long for a problem before the need for dust masks was realized. But I just don't see 'wild trucks' as a problem that requires complete refitting of all trucks.

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by SeanAhern
[B...snip...For those of you who are claiming that this device would be easy to bypass by running some lines around it, I have two things to say.

First, read the line from the <a href="http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/truckstoppingdevice.html">second article</a>:
<blockquote>
It is connected to the air lines of a truck or trailer in such a way that any attempt to clamp or block the air line to the TSD will cause the spring brakes to lock the wheels at all times.
</blockquote>
...snip... [/b]

Yeah, and if I'm a terrorist, I'm not going to just jack up the truck, and disconnect the springs?

Yes, it'll work for a truck that gets hijacked (More common than you think), where the criminal has a few minutes to work on the truck.

The problem, if your talking about "Terrorists" is they HAVE time. What makes you think that they don't have a full fleged machine shop? - Heck I have a pretty good machine shop in my basement - lathe, 2 mills, etc, soon to have CNC. How much you want to bet that I could disconnect those brakes?

One of the guys I ride to work with is a fairly high ranking Federal Police Officer (Has about 500 people who answer to him). He and I discuss security all the time. One day (Post 9/11) I said to him that most of the security I see is a joke, and easy to get around. He replied "Of course! Most of it is meant to stop the casual attempt, and to act as a 'visual deterant'. " It's not meant to stop the serious attempt

As a device to stop hijacked trucks/the typical LA car chase you see on TV, this is a wonderful idea - but DON'T bill it as "Anti Terrorist"

[jaguar]

SeanAhern
Since you've been sitting piously above for quite a while judging by your tone, you'd know I’m pretty opinionated. The point it that since anyone with access to a truck can inspect think thing, it’s not going to take long for its details to be known, and probably posted on the internet

You agreed yourself that it’s a silly attempt at security though obscurity, and therefore most likely to fail, thereby agreeing with posts before it, if you're complaining about the strength of language, well, make that a bit clearer.

Secondly, if you don't like the heat get the hell out of the kitchen, think we're a bunch of opinionated fucks? Then leave.

Ahhh...yes. Calling me "seriously naive". And using absolutes like "no possible way". That's the attitude that I've come to expect from the Cellar.

The other issue is is that there are a number of a: engineers and b: It professionals here who do know what the hell they are talking about. While I’m not going to deny some of the arguments here are often a: petty, b: full of some seriously stupid arguments, that often happens in debates, particularly conversation style ones like cellar.

For someone with such a low opinion you don't seem to often bother to descend from the moral high ground you clearly occupy to engage us mere mortals in debate.

[jeni]

opinionated.

every freely thinking person on the entire planet is opinionated.

we choose for ourselves, of course, what to think more strongly of. big deal if it's abortion, animal rights, or california government implemented truck stopping devices.

it's pretty stupid, in my opinion, to get so pissy because someone else has an opinion.

[jaguar]

its more of a matter of the strength(and how strongly its shown) and logic of it.

[Nothing But Net]

Now we know that you CAN spell and form a coherent sentence; why don't you do it all the time?

Just wondering...

[jaguar]

Because i'm often tired, or pissed off, or in a hurry. Yes those are terrible excuses, as a result, you shall be faced!
angry:

:whofarted

[jeni]

david.

i am now nearly convinced that you are trying to fit that smiley into every single new post. i've seen the majority of them (your recent posts) contain it.

in fact, i read a short post earlier, without looking at all at who wrote it, and i knew it was yours because of that smiley. if it had been long i would have known you by your diction.

anyway, until i find out if this is true or not, i will just look for the smiley in every one.

[mitheral]

Originally Posted by CharlieG

The problem, if your talking about "Terrorists" is they HAVE time. What makes you think that they don't have a full fleged machine shop? - Heck I have a pretty good machine shop in my basement - lathe, 2 mills, etc, soon to have CNC. How much you want to bet that I could disconnect those brakes?

You wouldn't need anything more sophisticated than a jack and impact wrench. Simply jack up axle, remove wheels, remove drum, remove brake shoes, reinstall drums, mount wheels, remove jack. Rinse, lather repeat on each axle until all trailer brakes disabled.