Immigration

[Munchkin]

This is a really tough issue for me. Im having trouble figureing out how I feel about it.

The first thing I think about, is how many americans are without jobs and living in poverty, and that I wish they would have these jobs first. But they you know that most americans wont take these jobs, which then just really pisses me off too. There are way too many people that just sit on their ass collecting a government check and wont take a job that they dont want to do.

I don't think that illegals should be sent to jail as criminals, but I do think they should be deported if they do not have a spouse or children who are american citizens. I understand that life here may be better than it is in mexico...but ya know what? I'd love to immigrate to canada, become a citizen, because Im afraid of what is happening to this country...but they wont let me in. Canada wont let americans in, so why is it so bad if we wont let mexicans in? But then again, its not like I live in a shack now but wouldnt in Canada.

Like I said, this is a difficult issue to judge. But in saying that, I must admit that Im the type of person who says screw foreign aid, lets fix this place first, when there are people dying everywhere. So I guess in the end my opinion will probably be to close down our borders and start fixing our own god damn shit before we try to help everyone else. I have nothing against mexicans... and I understand that theyre trying to make a better life for them and their family, but I do not think we should have an open gates immigration policy, nor do I think that we should legalize the millions of immigrants already inside our borders. And of course, I think it woudl be stupid to put htem in jail, there are already too many people in there. I think we should free all the people who were convicted of any offense having to do with marijuana and see how our criminal justice system thrives then...

Wow.. I went all over the place with that one. Sorry.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

...and why do we suddenly care so much about this, anyways?

Because a bill passed the House making being an illegal alien or helping one a felony, so a big campaign has been mounted to lobby against it. Kind of an uphill struggle given that we're pretty sure illegal aliens can't vote.

So far, anyway.

"Helping illegal aliens" must be a growth industry, based on how many US citizens who are doing it for a living that I've seen on mainstream media lately.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Munchkin

...most americans wont take these jobs...

Not for the prices an illegal alien will. If that market were eliminated we would find out what the work is actually worth in legal on-the-book dollars.

Until then it's Greshham's Law in action.

[Munchkin]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Not for the prices an illegal alien will. If that market were eliminated we would find out what the work is actually worth in legal on-the-book dollars.

Until then it's Greshham's Law in action.

Very true. I heard a woman on the radio saying that her husband is a house painter for a living...and if he ever complains to his boss about his pay his boss just replies " deal with it, if you dont like it Ill just hire two mexicans for half the pay"...

*shrug* .. Of course the rethugs will try to claim that forcing these companies to pay real wages to their employees would destroy their business. But in my opinion, if you cant afford to pay your employees properly, you arent a good business person anyway.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Munchkin

Of course the rethugs will try to claim....

If you think the only people exploiting the illegal alien market are Republicans, you should probably think again.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Because a bill passed the House making being an illegal alien or helping one a felony, so a big campaign has been mounted to lobby against it. Kind of an uphill struggle given that we're pretty sure illegal aliens can't vote.

I mean, why does the congress suddenly care about it? The American people didn't really care about illegals until someone stirred up this big pot of shit, so why are lawmakers pushing this through? I'll die of laughter if this originally started out as a "we need to prevent al qaeda from crossing the border" bill.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I mean, why does the congress suddenly care about it?

The Republicans are trying to find an issue to distract us from everything else, because everything else isn't going so well.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

The American people didn't really care about illegals...

Depends which American people you're talking about. I bet the aformentioned house painter does. A bunch of other "American people" do too...like those competing with H1-Bs who are doing another set of "jobs Americans won't do".
That description is true enough if the job is defined with a fixed compensation level set at the whim of the employer, rather than being a variable subject to market forces.

This may have something to do with where the media input that generates your idea of "what the American people care about" comes from.

[MaggieL]

I heard the tail end an interesting interview on NPR (yes, I listen to that too) Monday with a professor (possibly of Hispanic studies?) who offered the opinion that one source of the conflict here has to do with differeing views about the immigration laws.

He said that the point-of-view of the illegals was that once they made it across the border that they'd "won the game" and should be allowed to stay. ..a view very much at variance with how a lot of citizens think about it. This may be why we're seeing a lot of "demands" for rights that don't actually exist in law. The implied sense of entitlement isn't sitting really well with some of the folks that feel like they're paying the bills.

[elSicomoro]

I think there were good intentions with the protests, but the only way you can really measure the impact of immigrants is if they don't show up for work and don't announce that they're going to be absent. Because many employers knew of the protest ahead of time, they planned accordingly. That weakened the protests' impact...how much is hard to say, based on what I've read over the past 2 days.

The market for cheaper help will never go away unless we revert from our relatively capitalist ways and/or there is a major shift in thinking in American society. We like making and saving money too much.

I think the market is driving wages down...that, and greed.

The issue of illegal immigration is so spun now, it's hard to tell which end is up. Overall, I think it's beneficial to the US. I'm not against making it easier for immigrants to come, but I think that could backfire because people that really need money will work for pennies. The problem will just go further underground.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

I heard the tail end an interesting interview on NPR (yes, I listen to that too)

Liar.

He said that the point-of-view of the illegals was that once they made it across the border that they'd "won the game" and should be allowed to stay. ..a view very much at variance with how a lot of citizens think about it. This may be why we're seeing a lot of "demands" for rights that don't actually exist in law. The implied sense of entitlement isn't sitting really well with some of the folks that feel like they're paying the bills.

I agree with the "game-winning" scenario for the most part. After all, we let Cubans in if they make it here. And if our borders are that porous that 12 million people just slip in, we're to blame for it.

I don't think we should just accept anyone willy nilly, though. I think a test similar to what Canada uses could work for us. And I think that our systems (medical, legal, etc.) could handle more people, if we were careful. Of course, that's a big IF. But I think we can handle the extra folks that we currently have.

[fargon]

IMHO, if I was running a business, and people did not show up for work yesterday. They would not be working here today, or ever.

My mother ran a coffee shop in SoCal for many years, and all her Mexican workers had green cards, and were treated with respect, and dignity.

We need to protect our borders, with troops if nessisary!!!

[Shocker]

Look guys, there is another side, a very serious side, to this issue that I haven't heard anyone else mention...

[elSicomoro]

Damn right! I'll be damned if I gonna make my own tortas!

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by sycamore

I agree with the "game-winning" scenario for the most part. After all, we let Cubans in if they make it here.

We do? Cubans were originally accepted as "political refugees" back in the e'60's, but you might want to read up on the current handling of Cubans arriving here, especially since the Mariel boatlift affair.

Originally Posted by sycamore

And if our borders are that porous that 12 million people just slip in, we're to blame for it.

And if you find a burglar in your living room, it's obviously your fault too; you should have better locks. Puhlease...

It's being proposed to make the borders more secure; a proposal that's meeting a lot of resistance. But making being an illegal alien here less attractive follows the principle of "security in depth".

I don't think making it across the line illegally should qualify somebody for citizenship.