Why did you have kids?

[Clodfobble]

Well shit... I had a long, thoughtful response written out, but I took too long to write it and I got logged out and lost all of it. Grumble grumble... I'll try and reconstruct it...

Originally Posted by Catwoman

Pride? What has pride got to do with anything? Oh yes, pride in yourself, as a woman I should a) have a self-esteem problem I need to overcome and b) overcome it by having a child.

No, you misunderstood. People with self-esteem problems should not have children. You asked why people want to have children, and I'm saying that people who already have pride in themselves often desire to have children, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by Catwoman

No, I'm not pessimistic. Most of my days are spent laughing, sometimes at absurdity, sometimes because I'm in the best relationship I've ever had and sometimes because I'm content with life, whatever happens. Yes, whatever happens.

Originally Posted by Catwoman

...most of the time they will be unhappy, like nearly everyone else on the planet...yet another confused and malconditioned person wandering aimlessly around the planet...

If you're content with your life, then you at least feel most other people are not content with theirs. I think that's cynical, if not pessimistic.

And if you are truly content with your life, then I think you do know something about life. Wouldn't you say that reaching a point where you can be content "whatever happens" is a worthy goal, and not one that everyone has attained? Then you certainly know more about life than some people. And if someone asked you, would you try to persuade them that such contentedness is a good way to look at life, and that laughing, having good relationships and being content whatever happens is a good philosophy to have in life? Then you have the innate desire to teach that person about what you know. The fact that you enjoy discussing things with people is proof that you both desire to learn from and teach other people--and learning is another very enjoyable part of being a parent.

You seem to have taken offense at my post, and I'm sorry. You asked why people would want to have children, and I tried to explain the way I feel about it, and draw parallels so that even if you didn't feel the same way about children, you might feel the same way about other things in your life and therefore understand where people who want children are coming from. I'm not trying to convince you to have children or tell you that you must have problems if you don't want them. I'm just trying to explain why people want them. You're right, I don't know that I'll be a good parent--all I can do is guess, and hope, and try my best. I don't know that I'll be a good wife, or a good friend, or a good anything... but I still try to be all of those things, because that's what humans do, we continually try.

[dar512]

Cat - asking for opinions and then abusing people over the answers is not polite nor will it help you learn anything.

Did your original post really mean to say "I think people are stupid for having children and I would like to elaborate using you all as examples"? If so, then you should have been more clear.

Are you considering children? If not, what made you post this particular question?

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by dar512

Cat - asking for opinions and then abusing people over the answers is not polite nor will it help you learn anything.

I had actually prepared a long response to catwoman yesterday but, for some reason, couldn't bring myself to hit the submit button and deleted it. Since my response was very similar to clodfobble's, I guess I just dodged a barb or two.

I don't really understand the motive behind the several related questions that catwoman has been posting recently in this and other threads. I suppose that is why I bagged my answer. That, and I thought I caught a faint whiff of condescension in the question that kicked off this thread.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

No, you misunderstood. People with self-esteem problems should not have children. You asked why people want to have children, and I'm saying that people who already have pride in themselves often desire to have children, not the other way around.

Ah, yes I think I did misunderstand. Sorry about that. I would just add that the 'pride' one feels may be misguided and if you are truly content or 'proud', you don't need the reinforcement of friends or children - as we tend to reproduce either to improve our lives (low self-esteem) or recreate them (pride).

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

And if you are truly content with your life, then I think you do know something about life.

I am alive, healthy and have the ability to see reality. What more could I want? I don't think this makes me special, just a little bit more aware.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

if someone asked you, would you try to persuade them that such contentedness is a good way to look at life

I would not try to persuade them, because people only learn/change when they want to. Of course I would answer any questions though.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

The fact that you enjoy discussing things with people is proof that you both desire to learn from and teach other people--and learning is another very enjoyable part of being a parent.

That is possibly true. Although I think the real reason I participate in discussions is the contact, recognition and pushing of boundaries, I rarely learn from it (although I am of course open to learning).

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

You seem to have taken offense at my post

I never take offense. To do so would be reacting emotionally which wouldn't get us anywhere. Feel free to insult and curse me all you like, if you think the point warrants it.

I was fully expecting an irrational, retaliatory response, but you have replied calmly and logically, which shows a greater level of awareness than most. Maybe you would be a good parent.

All I want is for people to acknowledge they might not be. Of course everyone likes to think they'd be (or are) a good parent. I just think if the people that shouldn't be having children didn't, there'd be a lot less problems in this world.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by dar512

Cat - asking for opinions and then abusing people over the answers is not polite nor will it help you learn anything.

Did your original post really mean to say "I think people are stupid for having children and I would like to elaborate using you all as examples"? If so, then you should have been more clear.

Are you considering children? If not, what made you post this particular question?

I'm not polite, because politeness is false. If someone is right, I will acknowledge it. If they've quite clearly got their head in a muddle, I will say so. Wouldn't you rather someone respected you enough to bother correcting you when you're wrong and listening when you're right, rather than appeasing you with politeness?

I do try to provoke people, because usually this is when you get a true response. Of course, there's the odd softy who takes it the wrong way, but then I won't learn anything from them anyway. As Clod has demonstrated, it is quite possible to respond objectively to my "abuse" if there is a genuine point to be made.

See last post, last paragraph, for my reason for posting.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

I was fully expecting an irrational, retaliatory response, but you have replied calmly and logically, which shows a greater level of awareness than most. Maybe you would be a good parent.

So what you're saying is, if I can deal with you then I can deal with a two-year-old?

[Catwoman]

If you can deal with a two year old, dealing with me is like adding 2+2. Piece of piss.

[lookout123]

Cat - what i'm getting out of all your posts when taken as a whole is either pretty confusing or very telling. i'm not sure which.

On religion you tell us that you have it all figured out. There is no God, it is a creation of a fearful, inquisitive mind. A step on the path to enlightenment before the revelation that there is no God, but only us. those that have a faith in God aren't educated or enlightened enough to know they are all they need and stop the search for something to fill a gap in their lives.

On relationships you tell us you see no point in having a commitment because it might not work out for the long haul. You like the warm and fuzzy, but think the commitment beyond that is foolishness.

On children you don't see the point in having children except to fill a void in our lives, or lift up a sagging self esteem. Those who see other value in being parents are misguided.

These last two issues were questions that you raised in what I thought was an inquisitive manner, but then you already seem to have all the answers worked out. So, really, why ask the questions if you already know all of the answers that will follow but have refuted them in your own mind?

I'm not trying to pick on you or ridicule you in anyway, I'm really just confused. I don't know you in real life, so I don't know much about you. We can only assume that we are IRL as we are in the cellar, as much as possible.

If this holds true for you then, it would seem that you are either the most overconfident, all knowledgeable person I've ever met or you are someone who is searching for something but refuse to admit it, because you don't know what in the world you are searching for.

Your posts in the three topics at hand lend themselves to the second choice. If you truly believed that there is nothing but ourselves in life then why argue with such conviction against those that believe otherwise. If you are right, no one has lost anything. The questions about relationships were asked because you are either searching for something or because you just wanted to tell us why we were wrong.

Either way, it seems to me that you may be asking these questions of yourself, but don't want to admit you aren't sure of the answers. Maybe you don't even like that you have the questions to begin with, since you don't believe in a void that needs to be filled. somehow, I think all of these threads are linked for you.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. I don't know, Freud I am not. I never liked the Coke. damn ice cubes always got stuck in my nose.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

All I want is for people to acknowledge they might not be. Of course everyone likes to think they'd be (or are) a good parent. I just think if the people that shouldn't be having children didn't, there'd be a lot less problems in this world.

It's obvious that some people should not have had kids. I think it's harder to tell whether people should have kids. Some of the darndest people turn out to have happy, healthy kids. In general, I think people that really want to have kids will give it their best and things will come out ok.

On the other hand, if you are hoping that some parent somewhere will smack themselves on the head and say, "Damn, Catwoman just made me realize, I should never have had children." I think you will be disappointed.

[wolf]

Catwoman, are you knocked up* and trying to decide what to do?

* In American English, this does not have anything to do with phone calls.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by wolf

Catwoman, are you knocked up* and trying to decide what to do?

23 shots. 22 misses and one bullseye.

* I believe they call it "preggers" in jolly old England

[undone]

If this is the case...let me be the first to suggest adoption..........

[perth]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

Wouldn't you rather someone respected you enough to bother correcting you when you're wrong and listening when you're right, rather than appeasing you with politeness?

I'm pretty sure you can correct someone and be polite at the same time.

I had a kid because I wanted someone else to do the dishes and mow the lawn.

Edit: Stupid "be"...

[glatt]

Originally Posted by perth

I had a kid because I wanted someone else to do the dishes and mow the lawn.

When my first kid was around two years old or so, a friend was over to visit one day. I asked my daughter to go get me a bottle of beer out of the refrigerator. I had never done that before, but it worked beautifully. My friend was impressed or maybe shocked, and my kid was happy to please me. And I got a beer.

[Catwoman]

It is sad (but understandable) that people think I would only post out of some personal opinion or situation (ie. I'm depressed, I'm pregnant, I'm unsure of myself...) The truth is a) I'm not and b) if I was, it wouldn't affect the content of my posts one bit (unless I had a specific question, like 'who can recommend a decent shrink').

So, I hope now I've said that (and why wouldn't you believe me) you can take my words on face value for what they are, and not be influenced by the fact it is me who is saying them.

Originally Posted by lookout123

Cat - what i'm getting out of all your posts when taken as a whole is either pretty confusing or very telling. i'm not sure which.

I'd imagine both.

Originally Posted by lookout123

On religion you tell us that you have it all figured out. There is no God, it is a creation of a fearful, inquisitive mind...those that have a faith in God aren't educated or enlightened enough to know they are all they need and stop the search for something to fill a gap in their lives.

Precisely. You could also interchange the word 'god' in that sentence for 'romantic love', 'identity', 'designer clothes', 'television'. I do keep repeating this, but all we need, and all we ever have done, is food, water and warmth - basic pre-requisites for heath and thus survival. Anything else, yes anything else, is superfluous. It does not take a genius to work that one out.

This great good god you believe in. I'm not trying to disprove it, it is not something that can be proven or disproven. The truth, the real truth right here today is that god exists only in your mind. Do you understand this? Whether or not at some point in the distant future in some faraway place you meet your maker and go 'see, I told you so', all that matters is right now. And right now god is but a thought.

Thoughts confuse things. If I think too much about something, it gets distorted. That's because as soon as the thing you're thinking about passes (ie. an argument with your spouse), there is nothing left to think about. So we make things up. 'Ooh I'm still really mad with him I just don't know why.'

We make things up because it is very hard to be at peace. This is because the self likes conflict, because conflict reinforces your identity (any one who has studied drama will know this is a very simple and effective tool). It might make things clearer if you read my 'What if you didn't have a name' thread.

Originally Posted by lookout123

On relationships you tell us you see no point in having a commitment because it might not work out for the long haul. You like the warm and fuzzy, but think the commitment beyond that is foolishness.

Yes, there is no point in promising a commitment. You might well stay together forever, my only point is that you cannot possibly know this, so why make promises you don't know that you can keep?

Originally Posted by lookout123

On children you don't see the point in having children except to fill a void in our lives, or lift up a sagging self esteem. Those who see other value in being parents are misguided.

Er, nope. Some people have children to fill a void. Some people do it for self-worth. The point of having children is to perpetuate the species. I think our inbuilt desire for children is made personal to encourage us to have them. Fuck me, having a kid isn't a bed of roses. Sleepless nights are a perk compared to giving up your own life let alone childbirth. So, our highly evolved, very intelligent minds have created things like 'love' and relationships to distract us from the less than romantic reality of having a child. Once you've had one, it is probably impossible to truly realise this, as it would negate a large part of your emotional experience.

Originally Posted by lookout123

These last two issues were questions that you raised in what I thought was an inquisitive manner, but then you already seem to have all the answers worked out. So, really, why ask the questions if you already know all of the answers that will follow but have refuted them in your own mind?

Double checking. Testing myself.

Originally Posted by lookout123

it would seem that you are either the most overconfident, all knowledgeable person I've ever met or you are someone who is searching for something but refuse to admit it, because you don't know what in the world you are searching for.

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that.

Originally Posted by lookout123

Your posts in the three topics at hand lend themselves to the second choice. If you truly believed that there is nothing but ourselves in life then why argue with such conviction against those that believe otherwise. If you are right, no one has lost anything. The questions about relationships were asked because you are either searching for something or because you just wanted to tell us why we were wrong.

Either way, it seems to me that you may be asking these questions of yourself, but don't want to admit you aren't sure of the answers. Maybe you don't even like that you have the questions to begin with, since you don't believe in a void that needs to be filled. somehow, I think all of these threads are linked for you.

I'm not arguing. I think it might help if you (plural) knew a bit more of the truth. You can lapse into the old 'but what makes you so sure you're right' thing but just think about what I've said, forget that it's me who said it, and you'll soon work out if it's right or not.

Yes, I'm always questioning myself. No, I'm never completely sure. I'd be stupid to think I've already got it, already answered all the questions, because this place is constantly changing and there are always new things to address. The belief that there is some spiritual end point is the myth that keeps us going. The truth, the only truth I can be sure of, is what is happening right now.

And yes, the threads are linked just as everything else you experience in your life. I would also mention that when I post, I just write what comes out, so if there is any contradiction with earlier posts that's because I may have changed - all I know to be true is what I know now. If you're not sure, ask a question!