Plane crashes into Tampa office tower

Originally posted by ladysycamore
[/i]In THIS situation however, that won't happen, because heaven forbid, whites can not be profiled in such a manner (Is anyone watching the future Timothy McVeighs in this country? I doubt that the watch is not as hard and as focused as the watch is on people of color). Welcome to America.

Well, the fact of the matter is, 8 of the last 9 people that flew planes into buildings were Arabs. If you want to count their entire force, we can bump it up to 19 out of 20 - I'm just counting the actual pilots here. So yeah, when they're looking for people to fly planes into buildings, I bet Arabs receive more attention.

Conversely, Eskimos are generally not suspects in insider trading criminal investigations. They just haven't had as much of a role in it as white guys have.

Blacks are looked at more closely for murders in Baltimore, because blacks kill more in Baltimore than whites do.

Whites are looked at more closely in serial murder cases, because whites are serial murderers more frequently than blacks are.

This doesn't happen because the police hate niggers or gooks; serial killers are not investigated by some cracker-hating Black Panther. These aren't stereotypes. It's just statistics.

[Nic Name]

We've seen photocopies of the "anthrax letters" so, why have we not seen the reported 6 page handwritten letter carried by the Bank of America Building "suicide" pilot, in which he mentions Osama and the attacks on the World Trade Centre. The actual words would allow the public to form a clearer picture of what happened here. Or, would that not be in the public interest? hmmm...

So far, all I've seen in the media is a couple of lines "paraphrasing" the letter by the police and authorities. Has the media asked for a copy of the letter, or a complete transcript? Has release of the complete transcript been refused? hmmm...

[Nic Name]

Uh oh ... it seems from a report on CNN tv that this troubled youth may have been of Arab descent, on his estranged father's side ... (The investigation is ongoing.) hmmm ...

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
Eskimos are generally not suspects in insider trading criminal investigations. They just haven't had as much of a role in it as white guys have.

Yeah, but you can't trust Inuits for anything.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. After what happened on 9/11, the first thing that came out of the mouths of people around me was "those fucking Arabs." However, I would say those examples are also forms of racial or ethnic profiling. If these rationales were strictly employed, I believe we would run the risk of creating new stereotypes, continuing current stereotypes, and indulging people in their self-fulfilling prophecies. I suspect the rationales are used already in some instances.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by dhamsaic


Well, the fact of the matter is, 8 of the last 9 people that flew planes into buildings were Arabs. If you want to count their entire force, we can bump it up to 19 out of 20 - I'm just counting the actual pilots here. So yeah, when they're looking for people to fly planes into buildings, I bet Arabs receive more attention.

Sure, I agree, but I would think that that would just leave the "door wide open" for other Non-arabs to do something crazy. And then, when they do (because you know they will), then the public will have another hissy fit, talking about, "What happened??"

Conversely, Eskimos are generally not suspects in insider trading criminal investigations. They just haven't had as much of a role in it as white guys have.

I've learned to not put anything past anybody. Anything's possible, even from those pesky Eskimos. (grin)

Blacks are looked at more closely for murders in Baltimore, because blacks kill more in Baltimore than whites do.

Ok, so does that make it "right" when an innocent black male is pulled over because blacks are looked at more closely? In the meantime, his white counterpart is committing a crime elsewhere, and getting away with it (more than likely).

Whites are looked at more closely in serial murder cases, because whites are serial murderers more frequently than blacks are.

And the reverse of what I said previously could be stated here as well. After all, the infamous Altanta child murders: committed by a black man. No one would have "thunk" it...but it was never out of the realm of possibility.

This doesn't happen because the police hate niggers or gooks;

Mmm...well, I don't believe that completely...

serial killers are not investigated by some cracker-hating Black Panther. These aren't stereotypes. It's just statistics.

Well, the only thing that I can say to that is that I'm coming from a POV of one that HAS been profiled (in other words, looked at more closely while shopping, aka "shopping while black"), and I can tell you that it sucks the biggest you-know-what. I've been tailed in certain retail stores, and it's highly annoying. I'm there to spend my hard earned dollars, not to get sticky fingers. In the meantime, while the clerks are so busy wondering when I'll snatch something off of the rack and run, that white gal that came in after me has already made her move, and she's in and out with her five finger discount (I've seen this happen).

Statistics be damned: Profiling is just plain wrong, IMO. There are too many people who have personal biases against certain cultures here in America. And now, the state of New Jersey has voted to not make racial profiling a crime. Ah, I see: and the hits (sometimes, literally) keep coming.

I agree with you on the fact that profiling is wrong. But it's a fact of life, no matter how irritating it is.

Being a young professional with hair that's probably nearing 3 feet long, a demeanor that dictates that I don't tuck my shirt in (read: "look like a slob"), a good little bit of facial hair and a habit of spending some of the money I make (read: going into stores a lot), I've been tailed numerous times. Why? 'Cause of the way I look. Young dudes with long hair are more mistrusted, apparently, 'cause I am treated lik e a criminal at the store. People follow me around, come keep a close eye on me, just sit and stare as I shop, etc. No doubt, some of them are thinking "We'll catch this dirtbag doing something."

Then there's the whole drug thing - everyone assumes that, because of said traits listed above (save for the fact that I spend the money I make), people assume I'm a druggie. I tell 'em "Nope. Never in my fucking life" they say "I don't believe that." Well fucking believe it, you mongrel idiot (no, not YOU! ). Apparently every male with long hair, some whiskers on his face and an untucked shirt smokes a lot of pot, when, in my case, nothing could be farther from the truth. I was shot in the eye when I was 14 - my right eye is still red from it. I have been asked, on more than one occasion - "Hey man, you stoned or what?" - and they don't believe me when I say "No."

Unfortunately for me, younger kids shoplift more frequently than Eskimos do (or businessmen, or Data Entry Specialists, or Systems Engineers, of which I am one). And, unfortunately for me, younger people are generally thought to have a higher drug-usage rate (though I am ignorant of actual statistics pitting teenage use vs. young adult or middle age use). Statistically, I'm more likely to fit into these groups than the old lady in Electronics looking for a GameCube for her grandson. Statistics.

You <b>can</b> do a little something about it, though: if you know you're being tailed by someone, approach them. Tell them, very politely, "I'd like to speak to your manager right now." When the manager gets out there, tell them "Look, I've been a customer of your store for quite some time, and I really do enjoy shopping here. However, if you continue treating me like a criminal, I'll be forced to take my business elsewhere." Make sure to mention that you do not steal, have not stolen, and will not steal from their store. If they continue giving you shit, go elsewhere - they're not worth doing business with.

Anyway. I know it sucks, but there isn't much we can do about it. Statistics happen to work against us in these cases - not for us.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
I agree with you on the fact that profiling is wrong.
Being a young professional with hair that's probably nearing 3 feet long, a demeanor that dictates that I don't tuck my shirt in (read: "look like a slob"), a good little bit of facial hair and a habit of spending some of the money I make (read: going into stores a lot), I've been tailed numerous times. Why? 'Cause of the way I look. Young dudes with long hair are more mistrusted, apparently, 'cause I am treated lik e a criminal at the store. People follow me around, come keep a close eye on me, just sit and stare as I shop, etc. No doubt, some of them are thinking "We'll catch this dirtbag doing something."
Then there's the whole drug thing - everyone assumes that, because of said traits listed above (save for the fact that I spend the money I make), people assume I'm a druggie. I tell 'em "Nope. Never in my fucking life" they say "I don't believe that." Well fucking believe it, you mongrel idiot (no, not YOU! ). Apparently every male with long hair, some whiskers on his face and an untucked shirt smokes a lot of pot, when, in my case, nothing could be farther from the truth. I was shot in the eye when I was 14 - my right eye is still red from it. I have been asked, on more than one occasion - "Hey man, you stoned or what?" - and they don't believe me when I say "No."

Ok, I understand, and I have seen that happen with young white males with long hair, and that "criminal" look, for a lack of a better phrase. However, one can change a "look"...I can not change my color. I remember watching a report about an experiement that was done in a store in Dallas (if I recall correctly). This experiment was recorded on tape. Two men, one white and one black, entered the store. Now, bear in mind this is a "high-end" men's clothing store, and both men were wearing suits. Both men were approached by the sales clerks. They both declined help, said they were just browsing for the moment, and went on about their business. It was shown that the black man was being tailed more closely than the white man. Why am I not suprised? It didn't matter that the black man was "clean cut" and well dressed: he was going to be profiled REGARDLESS.

Unfortunately for me, younger kids shoplift more frequently than Eskimos do (or businessmen, or Data Entry Specialists, or Systems Engineers, of which I am one). And, unfortunately for me, younger people are generally thought to have a higher drug-usage rate (though I am ignorant of actual statistics pitting teenage use vs. young adult or middle age use). Statistically, I'm more likely to fit into these groups than the old lady in Electronics looking for a GameCube for her grandson. Statistics.

I can't wait for the day that that old lady in Electronics actually lifts that GameCube for her grandson, and trust me: it WILL happen. Possibility.

You <b>can</b> do a little something about it, though: if you know you're being tailed by someone, approach them. Tell them, very politely, "I'd like to speak to your manager right now." When the manager gets out there, tell them "Look, I've been a customer of your store for quite some time, and I really do enjoy shopping here. However, if you continue treating me like a criminal, I'll be forced to take my business elsewhere." Make sure to mention that you do not steal, have not stolen, and will not steal from their store. If they continue giving you shit, go elsewhere - they're not worth doing business with.

Hrm...nice idea in theory. Remember: If I am being treated like a common criminal because I am black, they are not going to care if I take my business elsewhere. One less so-and-so in their store to profile.


Anyway. I know it sucks, but there isn't much we can do about it. Statistics happen to work against us in these cases - not for us.

dham: I understand and respect your opinion on this matter. But, I can not agree with the term "us". Statistics will always work against ME. If you say that you are profiled because of age and looks, well, you'll eventually grow older, and perhaps change your look. However, I will ALWAYS be black, no matter the age or look, and therefore, will ALWAYS be profiled to some extent.

I know I <b>can</b> change my look. But view it this way:

Being black (african american? which do you prefer?) is a part of you. It just is. Your skin color is a part of you.

My long hair is a part of me.

I <b>can</b> change it, but I <b>won't</b>. It's just as much a part of me as anything else is, and it always will be. Sure, I bet I'll get it cut some day - but for now, it's a very defining characteristic. That's not something I'm willing to give up, even if I can.

As for the study in Texas - what do you expect in <b>Texas</b>?

It seriously is very disappointing though, and I'm sorry that it's one of those things you have to go through. I seriously would recommend talking to a manager though - what matters to them is MONEY (that's why they're watching you in the first place, right? They're afraid you might steal something, depriving them of revenue). If you mention that you spend lots of money there, and will cease to do so if they continue treating you like a criminal, there <b>is</b> a chance they'll listen.

And if not, you could always get me and sycamore to hand out a beat down.

[Undertoad]

While you two bicker over who is the worse-off victim, one of the secrets to life (I think) is that you cannot possibly be a victim unless you allow yourself to FEEL victimized.

People can treat you all kinds of ways, but they cannot control your thoughts.

Yesterday I read an account of this Afghani dude who was tortured to within an inch of his life by the Taliban because they wanted him to confess to spreading Christianity.

You guys think you're victims? Bad eye, skin color not in the majority? Cops give you the twice-over, people follow you in stores? Please. You should read this dude's story. Nearly electrocuted until he was only able to crawl to go to the bathroom which consisted of a bucket in another cell. Left with brain damage, practically unable to move some of his limbs. Not for some dumb reason like appearance: no, it was for no reason at all. But this guy, somehow somewhere, picked up some way of thinking about his situation where he is able to get past it. Why can't we do the same?

I believe our culture is messing with us when it tells us that we should care about what other people think about us. It is a very strange notion indeed. I wonder how it came to be.

I've read it. And I agree.

But I think you're kind of missing my point, and that is, it's just kind of the way it is. People are going to get looked at funny for a number of reasons, and we just need to live with it. I don't feel victimized - it's annoying, surely, but I know I have it pretty good. I think the point I was trying to make is that "discrimination" happens for a reason. So :PPPPPPPPPPPPP to you.

As for your parting comment - I care what some people think of me. Namely, Jenni, Megan, Andrea, Jen. Other than that, I'm pretty apathetic to others' "concerns" or feelings. And I don't change myself for whatever reason - I'm just fortunate enough to have friends that accept me for who I am and manage to put up with me.

[tw]

You're all dancing around, but ignoring the important point. Is it profiling based upon logical facts or just profiling based upon human bias? Do dishevled kids with 3 foot long hair commit more crimes? That is the statistic that a 'profiler' must possess to perform profiling.

Again, it goes right back to a fundamental thread - do we make decisions based upon facts or based upon personal bias - first impressions - better known as racism.

The employee is only as effective as his managers. Did they provide the employee with the necessary facts, statistical studies, and other necessary information to perform profiling? If not, then why were they so negligent. Profiling without the facts is simply another form of racism. Where are the numbers? What are the facts? Only then can a profiler profile.

[jaguar]

Jsut to join in the victimfest try being under 18. First of all ignorant adults don't take you seriosuly becaue they refuse to realsie that you may have opinions as valid as thiers . But seriously, if i had a penny for every time i've been served after a businessmen even though i ordered first...grrrr....Paying with large notes, generous tips or paying by credit card seem to fix it instantly but.....The point is that people can disrciminate (and do) on anyhting, age, race, sex, religion, political views, you are only a victim if you want to be. The logic that says more blacks shoplift than whites (random gues/exmaple) is no justification for following every black person that enters the store. Personally? Fight back, for instance, take something off the shelf, then put it in your pocket, then pay for it at the counter, piss em off
Or pay for $5 cafe bill of a $100 note. Best one is resteraunts - i'm not sure what american law is like but you can demand to inspect the kitechns at any time as a customer, give it a shot, most reseraunters know the drill - they can't stop you unless you interfere with cooking. If you see thinks like cracked plates you can report them to the relavent authorities for having unhygenic kitchens forcing them to undergo a through inspection, a time consuming and occasionally expenisve operation. (just don't do it if you want to eat there again )

Originally posted by jaguar
Jsut to join in the victimfest try being under 18. First of all ignorant adults don't take you seriosuly becaue they refuse to realsie that you may have opinions as valid as thiers

*cough*

*cough cough*

*cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough*

*cough*

[jaguar]

My, my, my, what are you implying? My good fellow i hope you aren't suggesting that i was refering to conversation or person in particular, i would take great offence at such a baseless and insulting accusation! I never imply anything, i prefer simple straighforward language rather than exploit the idiosyncrasies of english to obscufate some hidden quiddity in my words. I hope you get better soon, that looks like a terrible cough indeed.

[Nic Name]

i prefer simple straighforward language rather than exploit the idiosyncrasies of english to obscufate some hidden quiddity in my words.

Such an erudite young man, Jaggy prefers intentionally to obfuscate his meaning with spelling errors. I luv it.