11/3/2003: Japanese dolphin kill

[Undertoad]

Now let's discuss MY relative intelligence for not noticing that there WERE points made about dolphin intelligence. Sorry.

[dar512]

Originally posted by Undertoad
And nothing in the thread about the relative intelligence of dolphins compared to cattle?

For me that's the thing that makes it no longer apples to apples. Cattle may not like being raised and slaughtered, but they lack any conscious concept of what's happening to them. While I would prefer they not suffer during the process, the fact that they can't ask why it's happening makes all the difference.

That's closer to how I feel. I don't think I could eat anything I could imagine having for a pet. I could not eat dog, even if it was raised for its meat. I watched Flipper as a kid, so I would never eat dolphin.

I understand that pigs are smart - mayber smarter than dogs. But I can't imagine keeping one for a pet, so I don't think I'll have any problems BBQing another slab of ribs.

[dar512]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Somehow, some way, I have ceased to be able to express myself through the written word.


The part that scares me is that one of my minors in college is English.

I have never encountered so much frustration trying to express my opinions in written form than I have here.

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person with a moderate vocabulary and at least rudimentary grasp of syntax.

How then, am I failing to communicate my thoughts on various issues?

Because in a conversation, people listen to understand. In a debate, people listen to gather amunition. Guess which one you've wandered in to.

She wandered into a conversation and turned it into a debate.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I still don't understand why you think I'm a hypocrit on this:

Because you're saying it's okay for one animal to die but not another, and your reason is completely absurd (as will be demonstrated below).

I think to me, the fundamental difference between raised meat and wild meat, is that in raised meat, there is less suffering in the butchering process than the descriptions in the greenpeace website in regards to these dolphins.

Then you really have no idea what happens in slaughterhouses. It is just as awful as what happens to these dolphins.

I don't have a problem with eating meat (had me some nice sausage gravy on biscuits for breakfast), but let's be honest: treating animals nice and easing their suffering isn't what the whole meat industry is about. They're about making money, and you save money by cutting corners.

Very reasonable explanations have been given for why dolphins shouldn't be killed and why the difference between raised and wild is so large. You still haven't even made those arguments yours! You've been given a great amount of ammunition and you've used none of it. Your argument now apparently boils down to "raised meat suffers less". No, it really, really doesn't. Go educate yourself on it before you debate assholes like quzah and me who spend way too much time reading and researching this shit.

I would have a problem if a Korean came to my house, stole my dog and ate it, or if they went to the house across the street, someone I don't know, and stole their dog and ate it.

If anything remotely resembling this were taking place, I suppose this would be relevant. The Japanese aren't stealing dolphins from the Baltimore Aquarium or SeaWorld. They're hunting dolphins in Japanese waters and it's in accordance with Japanese law.

Okay, so you don't like it. You still haven't convinced anyone that this is better somehow than what happens everyday in abbatoirs across the United States.

coliano - You make a mostly valid point, but I think she's demonstrated that what you are talking about is not at all what she is talking about.

[Whit]

      Isn't it interesting that for all the debate going on here we have all seem to dislike the dolphin slaughter and agree it's not our place to tell the Japanese what to do?

[kisrael]

Are the Dolphins or Porpoises, and do you think that matters?

I know people get the two mixed up a LOT.

[wolf]

Porpoise is chewier.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by dave
coliano - You make a mostly valid point, but I think she's demonstrated that what you are talking about is not at all what she is talking about.

No, it isn't. I just made the mistake of adding my opinion on the subject to the whole hypocrit thing. And nobody seems to acknowledge (besides coliano) that this whole thing started over my comment about Sato. So consider this my last, poorly written post on the subject. Y'all can think I'm a hypocrit if you want to. Whatever.

What's a hypocrit?

[quzah]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

I still don't understand why you think I'm a hypocrit on this:

Because you're a fucking idiot. Here's why:

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
There is a difference between free animal and raised animal. So I feel different about free animal and raised animal.

No there isn't, here's why:

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Koreans eat dog. They breed and raise a certain type of dog for food. I've eaten dog when I was in Kunsan, Korea.

I don't have a problem with Koreans eating raised dog.
I would have a problem if a Korean came to my house, stole my dog and ate it, or if they went to the house across the street, someone I don't know, and stole their dog and ate it.

Ding ding ding! The Hypocrite meter just went off!

Ok, so what do you have a problem with here? The fact that they "stole their dog", or the fact that it's your or your friend's dog? So if I go down to the pound, get myself a dog, and BBQ the fucker, that's fine, but if I get a puppy, raise it up, then eat it, that's wrong. Why?

So if I treat an animal as if it is a worthless piece of shit, I can eat it. But if I give it any personal value, then it's horrific to eat it?

Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy here?

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I think to me, the fundamental difference between raised meat and wild meat, is that in raised meat, there is less suffering in the butchering process than the descriptions in the greenpeace website in regards to these dolphins.

If you corral a bunch of cows, indescriminately stab away and it takes 3 days for the thing to die, I have a problem with that. If you corral a bunch of dogs, pigs, dolphins, sharks, pirahna, whatever, and they suffer for three days before they die, I have a problem with that.

I'm not thrilled about deer/elk/moose/rabbit/pheasant/quail/javelina/whatever hunting, because sometimes the animal gets wounded instead of killed, and runs away to die slowly. I think that's wrong. But...it is in accordance with the law and I will die to defend anyone's right to lawfully hunt game. That's why I said in the first posts, if the Japanese are hunting dolphins in accrdance with international law, it's not our place to decide for them. Doesn't mean I have to l like it.

So if the Korean in question buys your neighbor's dog's litter of puppies, then deftly snaps their necks so they die quickly, and eats them then, that's ok? You're a piece of work.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I still do NOT see hypocrisy in my statements, quzah, and I want you to be more specific, pointing out places that I was.

Un-fucking-believable. I'm done here.

Quzah.

[Undertoad]

It's interesting how one can have such great respect for animals and such little respect for fellow human beings.

Well, in the defense of animals, they generally don't do stupid things like murder and stock fraud. Any killing they do is out of necessity, not for the pure glee. They have a pretty strong tendency not to be liars and they didn't create the atomic bomb or Nelson (the band).

[Torrere]

Wild cattle are called aurochs. Aurochs were domesticated into cattle in five different places roughly five thousand years ago. I had thought that aurochs went extinct at roughly the same time, but according to a site from Google, a herd of aurochs survived in the care of the Polish kings until the early 1600s.

Since the intelligence of cows has fallen so dangerously low, I believe that any attempt to re-introduce cows into the wild would end in blumbering failure.