Plane crashes into Tampa office tower

[Nic Name]

I agree with everything in Whit's post.

Furthermore, Bishop is no less a terrorist because, in the result, he was less effective and only killed himself. And he's a terrorist whether he acted alone, or not.

If Bishop had crashed his plane into MacDill AFB, he'd be on par with the attackers on the Pentagon. If he had crashed his plane into either the Delta or Southwest airliners in the vicinity, he would have caused much more death and disruption of the airline industry, generally on par with the Pennsylvania crash.

I think Bishop chose to be a terrorist. Surely he was misguided or self-deluded. I think Bishop sought infamy by targetting the Bank of America Building because his perception was that the attacks on the WTC were where all the notoriety was focused by the media.

I don't think Bishop's attack should be viewed as a suicide, at all. There is no indication that he was suicidal, that he wanted to end his life. Quite the contrary. The Al Qaeda hijackers were not committing suicide. Their deaths were necessarily incidental to their acts. In their minds martyrdom, sacrifice not suicide. So too, Bishop. He didn't want to die. He wanted to make a statement. Living through the event was not important. Sacrificing one's life is believed by martyrs to add emphasis to their statements ... but death was not his objective.

Terrorism was. I think Bishop wanted to join in the terrorism, if not join with the terrorists. I think he might also have been confused about his middle eastern ancestry. I suspect the evidence is in the note ... and that's why we are not seeing it. In the famous line from A Few Good Men, a movie about Gitmo, the government believes, you can't handle the truth.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Whit
Of course if you remember it was originally reported that the people believed responsible were 'three men of arab decent'. So you could argue that was the reason for it...

I do recall the media referring to the bombing as "domestic terrorism," but as far as McVeigh, I don't recall them referring to him as a "terrorist" until maybe the past couple of years, if that.

*recalls watching CNN after coming back from class the morning of the bombing...in a matter of hours, CNN had a title for the attack already--Terror in the Heartland*

[Nic Name]

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Nic Name
I agree with everything in Whit's post....
I don't think Bishop's attack should be viewed as a suicide, at all.

There's a pretty severe contradiction here, since Whit said it was a suicide.

There is no indication that he was suicidal, that he wanted to end his life.

Um....other than flying an airplane directly into a building.

My own belief at the moment is that Bishop was already emotionally distressed--being an adolescent male can be a very rough ride. When 9/11 hit the fan he was unable to cope with a conflict he perceived between having some arab ethnicity and wanting to be an All-American boy, grow up and join the AIr Force. While his chosen manner of death may have had a symbolic value that he felt linked him to his absent father, I don't see any evidence that he was trying seriously to kill people anyone other than himself. I doubt he looked much further than this being the final act in his own personal melodrama.

In this sense it's rather similar to the Columbine mess, which at least had a much stronger indication that "terror" was an objective.If either tragedy had a genuine political motivation, that message was so poorly conveyed as to pretty much be lost.

I don't see either of these incidents as rising to what we ordinarily consider as "terrorism".

[Nic Name]

Whit actually said ... As far as the kid goes, my original opinion is largely unchanged. The big difference is that I don't think he should get a Darwin award, he offed himself on purpose, suicides are automaticaly excluded. Heck, I'd love to hear some jokes on this. Of the "What's the last thing that goes through a bugs mind when he hit's a windshield going 60 mph?" variety. He wanted to kill. In my book you lose all consideration given to a victim when that person person seeks to victimize others. I actually chuckled when I found out he was seeking to do real damage and instead wound up doing almost nothing. He was confused? Tough shit. I know people who have been through much worse and they never killed anyone over it. I have no sympthy for him.

I thought that Whit was saying that Bishop shouldn't get a Darwin because his death wasn't accidental stupidity. It is in that sense that Whit called it a suicide. Further in the post Whit says that Bishop wanted to kill and sought to victimize others. So I don't think there is as great a contradiction in saying I agree with what Whit said. I would agree that Bishop's death is more of a suicide than an accident, but I don't think that the clues to why it happened are found in the analysis of suicide, per se.

I think there is a big difference between saying he wanted to end his life, and being prepared to end his life to achieve a result or make a statement. He made a statement ... let's read it. In the same way, the Al Qaeda hijackers were not suicidal but prepared to sacrifice their lives to achieve a result. One cannot argue that the fact that they piloted planes into the WTC is proof that they were suicidal.

I would add, that the one point in Whit's post that I didn't agree with, is that this is a subject to joke about. I don't share that opinion.

Maggie said ... that message was so poorly conveyed as to pretty much be lost.

I suspect the message was clearly conveyed in the note ... and that it has been obscured for political reasons, as I've stated.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Nic Name

I suspect the message was clearly conveyed in the note ... and that it has been obscured for political reasons, as I've stated.

Considering the note was found in Bishop's pocket after the crash, he didn't pick a very effective way of publishing it. He did have a computer, and *could* have arranged for it to publish online after a delay. Simply putting it on a Geocities page with his name in it would probably be good enough; after the incident it would be certain to be found by the press. Maybe he just didn't think of that. He certainly ran a big risk that the note would *never* be found, if there had been a post-crash fire.

But I doubt that the reason we haven't seen the note is political, although of course I may be wrong. Typically there's a significant delay (as there was with the Daschle letters) before evidence like this is published in toto, waiting until it's nearly *certain* that the publication won't close any investigative doors forever...situations like that "how did you know the murder was comitted by stabbing? That was not in any published report!" twist in murder mysteries.

But if significant time gores by and we still haven't seen the note, even my suspicions will be aroused as to why. But we're not there yet.

[Whit]

     For the record I didn't mean to sugest that this idiot kid was in any way killing himself out of depresion or anthing else that is usually associated with suicide. He died to send a message. Only for the reason of passing curiosity do I care to hear it.

     Which brings up something else, I intend to make fun of that message. Nic said he didn't think this was something to joke about, I disagree for a couple of reasons.
1 For starters killing yourself to make a point is just plain silly. Just like hurting your foot kicking your car when it breaks down. It hurts you (well unless you die really quick) and does nothing to improve your situation personally. I can't remeber which general it was (Patton maybe?) that said, "Don't die for your country, live for it. The trick is getting the other guy to die for his." I think that's badly misquoted but you get the picture. Anyone rember the correct quote?
2 This guy wanted to be taken seriously. That's reason enough. Just on principle I try not to give violent idiots or killers (or in this case would-be killer) anything they want. He tried to kill people that had done nothing to him personally because he was freakin' confused... So, I laugh at him. I hope the next guy like him hears me.
3 It kills the glamour of it. I know how stupid that sounds, hear me out. Right now there are kids out there dumb enough to think this was cool. I don't know any but I'm pretty sure they exist. If they hear a bunch of jokes about it they are far less likely to follow suit.

     Oh well, have fun. See you in a couple of days.

something to the effect of "Nobody ever won a war by dying for their country. They won it by making the other poor bastard die for his." - and it was indeed Patton.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Whit
For the record I didn't mean to sugest that this idiot kid was in any way killing himself out of depresion or anthing else that is usually associated with suicide.

OK...I stand corrected on that point.

Interesting fragment from the AP wire:

The two teenagers used to message each other by computer almost every day. But Favreau, 15, said his friend had recently seemed to brush him off, ignoring his messages.
Favreau also said that in spite of the note found in Bishop's pocket, the teenage pilot "hated bin Laden."
He said Bishop had expressed sympathy for the victims of the September 11 attacks in a class paper.
"I think he wrote the note to get publicity so people would know who he was when he died," Favreau said. "And they do."

[BrianR]

The teenage pilot's actions are being blamed on his acne medicine.

There you have it.

Brian

[Nic Name]

i wonder about the logic of the studies that show a common symptom of that medicine is depression ... isn't depression a common symptom of the acne?

[jaguar]

BriaR i assume you were refering to this?

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Nic Name
i wonder about the logic of the studies that show a common symptom of that medicine is depression ... isn't depression a common symptom of the acne?

Actually, they're both symptoms of adolescence.

[jaguar]

*laughz
too true

[BrianR]

Actually, Jag. I was more referring to the following link

http://inq.philly.com/content/inquir...ramsland10.htm

It mentions the teenagers taking Accutane, a prescription acne medication
that has been linked to depression and suicide in some studies.

There is more on the Florida Times Union website archives.

Brian