Tis The Poaching Season

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

I think it is corporate welfare. I seem to remember a few years back congress giving detroit auto makers about 3 grand for every SUV sold. This is off the top of my head and probably a viscous rumor. Youknow how they start, maybe someone who is more concerned than I may be able to verify this.

I think what you are referring to is a tax break for busnesses to buy trucks, that backfired because most SUVs are classified by the feds as trucks. Many small business owners took advantage to buy new toys and family transportation with a big tax break.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

Thank you. At least someone gets what I'm trying to say.

I realize none of this is ever going to happen, because the accounting is too difficult and it's political suicide for whoever tries to pass the legislation. It would just be nice if we could all make our choices and pay for our own stuff without subsidizing others. Alternative fuels, fuel efficient cars, energy efficient manufacturing processes, etc. could all compete on a level playing field. The market might actually work to help make positive changes.

Oh, I get what you're saying. You probably feel I'm going to great lengths to shoot down a simple, logical, premise. But, I don't agree with your basic premise that the billions Bush is squandering in Iraq is entirely, if at all, about keeping oil flowing. I then explained why it's unfair and unworkable.

Besides all the other reasons for this Iraq fiasco, I think it has more to do with getting the guy that made Daddy look stupid, than with oil.
Maybe it's logical to feel it's about oil because Bush's other reasons are stupid, but I think Bush and logic have been proven to mutually exclusive.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

But glatt isn't suggesting any new taxes. He's saying that we're already paying for all this, we just don't connect it to the amount of oil that we use. Let's say you were given the option to get a 30% discount on your income taxes, and that money would be added to your gas price instead--so if you don't buy the gas, you pay 30% less taxes. If you do buy it, everything stays the same for you money-wise, but you mentally realize how much money you're paying because of your oil usage.

Lovely example but still unworkable. How do you determine how much of your taxes is being used to insure oil supply? It simply can not be done.
Tell the Federal Government not to do anything in that regard and let the chips fall where they may?
I don't think the feds do much, for only one reason, it's always a "combination of factors". Granted, not the least of which is political clout(donations).

There is a lot of things my taxes are used for, I don't agree with or approve of, but that's a question of making politicians behave the way I want. I don't expect to see that happen, and I may be in the minority on many of these expenditures, but I still don't like it.
That said, I still have to pay for them.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I think what you are referring to is a tax break for busnesses to buy trucks, that backfired because most SUVs are classified by the feds as trucks. Many small business owners took advantage to buy new toys and family transportation with a big tax break.

Yeah, that's the ticket. I did some research and found that out. Then I reminded myself of who told me the original "factoid"/ viscous rumor and realized that I was quoting a notoriously unreliable witness.

I'm gonna stpo reding nwo.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Oh, I get what you're saying. You probably feel I'm going to great lengths to shoot down a simple, logical, premise. But, I don't agree with your basic premise that the billions Bush is squandering in Iraq is entirely, if at all, about keeping oil flowing. I then explained why it's unfair and unworkable.

Besides all the other reasons for this Iraq fiasco, I think it has more to do with getting the guy that made Daddy look stupid, than with oil.
Maybe it's logical to feel it's about oil because Bush's other reasons are stupid, but I think Bush and logic have been proven to mutually exclusive.

Ever since the Iraq war began, we've been talking here about the reasons for it. As each reason hasn't made sense, Dwellars have been coming up with new ones to try to explain it. First it was all about an imminent threat of attack by Saddam. That was proven wrong. Then some said it was about a sticky flypaper trap to get terrorists all in one spot, but that seems a little too convoluted. Then others said it was about trying to build a pro-US democracy in the middle of the region. A base we could operate from. That makes the most sense to me. It might not be why Bush decided to attack in the first place, but we will probably never know his reasons. Maybe you are right. Maybe it's personal. I'm not sure anyone knows.

In the big picture, it seems to me that historically we have spent an awful lot of time, energy, money, and blood focused on that one region of the world. It's quite a cooincidence that it is also where the oil is. There are more muslims in other parts of the world (Indonesia) where we don't pay any attention. It's got to be the oil. Not the people. Not the religion.

I understand that we NEED the oil. But I just think it would be nice if there was some way to pass the costs along to the end users of oil so there will be some incentive for people to actually conserve.

We had a drought a few summers ago. It was in the news for a while. Most people voluntarily stopped watering their grass and just let it go dormant. A small number of people kept watering their lawns so they would stay nice and lush. I can't fathom that attitude, and I think it's the same attitude that many americans have toward oil use. Except that they don't realize we are in an oil drought because the price at the pump is so cheap. If they only knew. If it was right in their face as they pumped, they might make better choices.

I'm not trying to be all preachy and holier than thou, but I know I probably come across that way. I use oil too. I think most people will make the right choices when they are presented with information. I think most people simply don't think about it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I agree we've spent a whole lot of time and money in the Middle East to keep the wheels greased(oiled?). I remember when Jimmy Carter told the (IIRC) the Saudis, no, we won't give you a bunch of new fighter planes, buy 'em yourself. I think that's what sparked OPEC.

Of course it was supposed to be about having forward bases to keep the Soviets in check, but that was really to keep them away from the oil.

It really was a good deal, though. The money spent brought the US a great deal of prosperity, before the "Captains of Industry" were replaced by the "Whores of the Boardroom", and created huge competition from the Far East for that oil.

But that said, Bush's Folly in Iraq is a whole different animal. It doesn't make sense in any context, even oil. Cars have always been the whipping boy for oil and pollution problems because they're in everyones consciousness. To blame SUVs, or even motorists is far to simplistic, and I feel misdirected away from the real culprit.

The lawn waterer was doing what was best for him/her. It's all about "me", my castle, my investment, my pleasure. There will always be people like that... people that don't believe or don't care, and usually do it in the least efficient, most wasteful, manner.
They continue because their friends and neighbors don't have the balls to shame them, pressure them into doing the right thing.
Of course that assumes they don't have a well for yard use, as some people do around here.