The Soul of Man Under Socialism

[KGZotU]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Ummm.....America right now. If you don't think that it is damn near impossible for some people to get out of poverty you are very naive.

There's no need to hide an ad hom behind a conditional that you know is true, come out and say it!

I'll grant you this reprive, I'll consider that you never adopted this weak position regarding my naivette. It's really, really not something that you want me to call you on.

Let's assume that neither of us is naive, only arrogant.

In fact, my wife and I have lived quite comfortably on about $15,000 a year. I don't think that you are taking into account the low cost of an Associates Degree or the availability of student loans.

Aside from mental issues, there is no reason why a young single or couple, acting frugally and responsibly, shouldn't be able to get a decent paying job and live very comfortably.

Now, if you still disagree, let me know. We can work together to find which factors you are willfully dismissing.

--Joe

I personally know several people who have made fortunes coming from true poverty in the US, it is easier to do here than anywhere else.

[Aliantha]

You can do it easily here too if you have the desire to. I think there are less people here who care that much about getting rich though. Or maybe we're all just too lazy to bother.

It was not my point I was just commenting on it. I would not want to be truly rich, I have seen what it is and don't want anything to do with it any more than I want fame.

[piercehawkeye45]

I know people that have come out of poverty to live good lives but their desire is so much greater than average it is hard to call it a norm to get out.

Aside from mental issues, there is no reason why a young single or couple, acting frugally and responsibly, shouldn't be able to get a decent paying job and live very comfortably.

I just can't get myself to believe that 40% (or so) of the population is irresponsible, but a catch that I can't see. Unless by that you mean spending next to nothing which can work for some people but not for everyone.

[KGZotU]

I wouldn't call it the norm to get out either. You weren't discussing norms, however.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Ummm.....America right now. If you don't think that it is damn near impossible for some people to get out of poverty you are very naive.

Here is my complete answer. You claim that it is 'damn near impossible' for some people to get out of poverty. Let's disregard the mentally and physically handicapped. Anybody currently in poverty can do one of the following to get into the middle class:

1: Over the course of two years, find an unskilled manual labor job that pays a reasonable starting wage.

2: Over the course of four years in a minimum wage job, attain an associates degree to qualify for skilled manual or office work. Over the course of the following two years, find a job in that field.

Would you assert that there is anyone in America that can't do one of those two things? Is there anyone that can not become an HVAC technician in this country? Is there anyone who can not get an AS in Business and become an office mail boy? You say "some people," who are these "some people" who can not achieve a modicum of skill and find an employer who desires it?

I didn't suggest that 40% of America is irresponsible. I'm not sure where you got that number in particular; a little Google-ing suggests that ~12% of Americans live in poverty. I said that anyone who acts frugally and responsibly can get out of poverty. There is another half of the equation. They must make such an achievement a sincere goal.

So, my fully qualified position is that anybody who forms the sincere goal of lifting themselves out of poverty, even unto the middle class, can do so providing that they act responsibly.

I responded to your original post because I felt that you were forming an allegorical America:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

God, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have all freedoms in one politcal government. It is my freedom to make as much money at the expense of others and it is also my freedom to persue happiness which is impossible when I have to work two minimum wage jobs to feed my children. These two scenarios can not work together so you will either have to pick one or try to find the middle ground between them.

You were kind enough to confirm. The truth is, in America you almost entirely get to choose how much success you want to achieve. If you possess any aptitude in a field, you can, through determination, put yourself in its top 20%. The upper strata might be fought over by those of great aptitude and determination, but the top 20% is open to anyone with an initial bit of skill.

Alternatively, if someone is in poverty and they don't care to make a sincere effort to get out, that is their choice as well. Those who wish to make the effort to succeed are not forced to support those who don't wish to make the effort to succeed.

--Joe

[KGZotU]

piercehawkeye,

It occurs to me that I might have misinterpreted you in all of this. I've had this topic on the brain, and might have been too ready to get it out in words.

I will agree, if it was your original point, that a single parent starting from a low income situation would have to work extraordinarily hard to both improve their situation and provide for their children. It is a possibility that such hardship could befall the innocent, and such a hardship is not accounted for in modern America.

--Joe

[piercehawkeye45]

Your last post pretty much sums up my belief for that situation. I don't think it is impossible for someone in the lower class to get out, just that it is a lot harder to get out and find a good job than it is for someone who was born into a well to do family.

Personally, what I think think that biggest problem for the lower class is sociological.

[KGZotU]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Your last post pretty much sums up my belief for that situation. I don't think it is impossible for someone in the lower class to get out, just that it is a lot harder to get out and find a good job than it is for someone who was born into a well to do family.

Personally, what I think think that biggest problem for the lower class is sociological.

I'll agree on all points. You got me on naive. (;

--Joe

[Shawnee123]

There is the underlying stigma that those who are poor must not work hard enough. That if you would just work harder, the money would come. This doesn't take into account many people who serve the public; jobs that require a LOT of skill, a bachelor's degree at minimum, many long hours for relatively little pay. Why do we keep doing it? For me, I've done the corporate thing, the supervisory experience in high tech manufacturing. As tough as it can be, there are satisfactions in this job that can't be measured.

No, maybe me and those like me are not living in poverty, but lacking the cushion of cash that becomes so important when you can't just go buy a new car because yours keeps breaking, hoping to make all the bills. The feeling that why does everything have to be so damn hard? The knowledge that the 10 grand some dude spends on a motorbike (or whatever...just an example) would relieve most of the frustration in your life; it gets old after a period of time.

It's very tough to catch up once you've fallen behind.

As I've said many times...we are losing our middle class and a society without a middle class cannot sustain itself.

Then I think about how lucky I am; how much worse things could be. My electric was shut off for a day and I had to wait for the next day to beg, borrow, and steal the payment. I woke up in the morning and it was under 40 degrees in my place. I thought how horrible it must be to be homeless.

Yet, every day stress of needing more, wanting more, looking for just a little relief from financial worries take its toll on a person.

I'm reminded of The Rocking Horse Winner by DH Lawrence.

(I hope I haven't offended or challenged anyone. It just seemed like a good thread to post some of the issues I have been dealing with as of late.) Thanks for the ears (eyes)

[KGZotU]

I'll drop the argumentative mode here.

I completely agree with piercehawkeye, at least I think I do, that the problem with the poor, or lower middle class, is sociological. As I said, my wife and I lived very comfortably on $15,000 a year, and that included saving for retirement! We drove a car, lived in an apartment, etc.

I think that many get caught up in this materialistic world. When they are young and poor they spend right up to the limits of their paycheck, and 'somehow' the situation just continues until they die.

How much money you make is your choice, as well as how well you want to live on that money.

I think it's one of life's cruel jokes that if you are seeking prosperity you will never find it. Only once I stopped caring about money did I understand how to save it and make it.

--Joe

[Shawnee123]

Not everyone wants prosperity. Some just want a nice little place, a reliable car, some breathing room. Happiness comes from friendships and family; one is better able to enjoy that when not feeling pressed by the weight of the world.

How much money you make is your choice, as well as how well you want to live on that money.

Yep, if only I worked harder. Same old assumption.

[KGZotU]

I think you misunderstood me, I should be explicit.

When I say that you choose how much money you want to make, I mean it literally and without value judgment.

You once had a higher paying job. You've chosen a lower paying job. Therefor, how much money you make is your choice. Even if this is not strictly true, you understand what I mean.

I'm not saying you should choose to make more money. I'm not saying that if you worked harder that you would make more money, or that in order to make more money you would have to work harder.

Just this, you choose how much money to make. You choose it through your education, through your career, through your choice of city.

By prosperity, I mean a very moderate prosperity. The kind that you describe. It's a kind that I've had on $15,000 a year. We could have lived like that forever, except that the money had strings.

I don't know anything about your situation. You express dissatisfaction, however, and I'm saying that there is a path to your satisfaction that does not depend on anybody else's actions.

--Joe

[piercehawkeye45]

I think Shawnee brought up a great point with the motivation. I have never experienced it but I am guessing trying to get out of poverty for an average person is similar to running towards something that seems to keep moving farther away. You do get closer in reality but for all the work you put into it, you do not move as fast as you would expect too, taking a major shot at your motivation.

Originally Posted by KGZotU

I think that many get caught up in this materialistic world. When they are young and poor they spend right up to the limits of their paycheck, and 'somehow' the situation just continues until they die.

This happens in every class until you get basically a bottomless account. I have seen high school kids spend all their money on nice cars and then complain about how much student loans are going to suck and how the interest rates are unfair when they go to college.

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Happiness comes from friendships and family; one is better able to enjoy that when not feeling pressed by the weight of the world.

I think that is one of the main reasons for happiness but doesn't explain everything. I personally believe that happiness comes from acceptance. You can have all the true friends in the world but that means nothing if you cannot accept yourself.

[KGZotU]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I think Shawnee brought up a great point with the motivation. I have never experienced it but I am guessing trying to get out of poverty for an average person is similar to running towards something that seems to keep moving farther away. You do get closer in reality but for all the work you put into it, you do not move as fast as you would expect too, taking a major shot at your motivation.

Though I'm an ardent libertarian, I can see a good argument here for socialism.

Namely, I can stand back and say that it is possible for anyone with sufficient motivation to achieve any status they like. That's the abridged version of what I stand back and say, anyway. (;

The reality is that a lot of people will fall prey to this sociological effect which keeps them basically unhappy throughout life. Even though every individual would have the power to lift themselves from this situation, perhaps an ideal government should protect its people from this sociological inevitability.

*shrugs* I'm just lucky I'm not in a place to have to decide.

--Joe