The Legislative Branch has no oversight responsibility over the White House.

[Happy Monkey]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14393611/

Warrantless wiretaps are illegal inside the US. They admitted using warrantless wiretaps inside the US. There are emergency workarounds in the form of the FISA court. They did not follow that law.

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/br...21271655.shtml

Warrantless/subpoenaless searches are illegal. They have an end-run around this in the form of "national security letters" which are supposed to be used for emergencies. But they broke the law even in their workaround.

[BigV]

Hey, TheMercenary--

I have to leave for a while, but please don't go away. You and I disagree completely on this subject, and I want to talk with you about it here in this forum. I'd love to hear your side of the story, your reasoning. Because I do not understand how an otherwise reasonable sounding person can be convinced of some of the postitions you've stated here. But tomorrow for me. Y'all keep on tawkin amongst yourselves, m'kay? But don't drive him off.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by BigV

Hey, TheMercenary--

I have to leave for a while, but please don't go away. You and I disagree completely on this subject, and I want to talk with you about it here in this forum. I'd love to hear your side of the story, your reasoning. Because I do not understand how an otherwise reasonable sounding person can be convinced of some of the postitions you've stated here. But tomorrow for me. Y'all keep on tawkin amongst yourselves, m'kay? But don't drive him off.

Nobody will be driving me off skippy.

[TheMercenary]

Ok now we are finally at the meat of the matter. The ACLU got one judge to stop the wiretaps. This does not make them illegal because it would need to go to the Supreme Court for that final ruling. Only the ACLU, through one judge, said so. Do you follow the appeals of the 9th Circuit Court out on the Left Coast much? Do you know how many of those rulings are overturned?

Your "they" is the ACLU???

So Muller appears on Capitol Hill under fire from the Dems. Ok, no problem there. Mistakes in the issuing of letters by the FBI for information were made. Nothing to do with wire taps there sparky.

The difference is that you are willing to let a few, say 9 or 10, terrorists slip through the cracks because you feel your rights are being violated, even though we have pretty much proven that none of your personal rights have been violated, while I am willing to let the Federal Government snoop around the people they suspect of wrong doing at the chance that a few people may be inconvenienced, and capture the 9 or 10 terrorists.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Ok now we are finally at the meat of the matter. The ACLU got one judge to stop the wiretaps. This does not make them illegal because it would need to go to the Supreme Court for that final ruling.

No, warrantless wiretaps are inherently illegal. The judge just confirmed it.

So Muller appears on Capitol Hill under fire from the Dems. Ok, no problem there. Mistakes in the issuing of letters by the FBI for information were made. Nothing to do with wire taps there sparky.

I never said it was, as you could discover by reading the paragraph I wrote immediately after the link. They have not confined their illegal activities to wiretaps.

The difference is that you are willing to let a few, say 9 or 10, terrorists slip through the cracks because you feel your rights are being violated,

Nope.

even though we have pretty much proven that none of your personal rights have been violated,

Nope. Nothing of the sort has been proven. It is, however, irrelevant.

while I am willing to let the Federal Government snoop around the people they suspect of wrong doing at the chance that a few people may be inconvenienced, and capture the 9 or 10 terrorists.

Suspicion is enough to negate the need for warrants and subpoenas? Why have warrants and subpoenas at all, then?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

No, warrantless wiretaps are inherently illegal. The judge just confirmed it.
I never said it was, as you could discover by reading the paragraph I wrote immediately after the link. They have not confined their illegal activities to wiretaps.
Nope.
Nope. Nothing of the sort has been proven. It is, however, irrelevant.Suspicion is enough to negate the need for warrants and subpoenas? Why have warrants and subpoenas at all, then?

You need to read the above article. The wiretaps go on. They found away around it. The letters from the FBI are perfectly legal. None of it is irrelevent and you have not been affected. I do suspect that acts have been thwarted, and I may not be able to prove it, I trust that it has.

[TheMercenary]

Oppppssss... I guess they are back in business after all!

US DOJ: Surveillance program now court-approved
NSA wiretapping program to be replaced by a FISA program that requires court approval



By Grant Gross, IDG News Service

January 17, 2007


A controversial surveillance program to wiretap telephone and Internet communications in and out of the U.S. will now fall under the jurisdiction of a U.S. court, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Wednesday.



A judge with the secret U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) on Jan. 10 authorized the U.S. government to wiretap phone or Internet communications involving suspected members of al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations, the DOJ said. The FISA-approved surveillance would replace the Terrorist Surveillance Program at the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), authorized by U.S. President George Bush in 2002 to create wiretaps without court-issued warrants.

The FISA ruling will allow the surveillance program to essentially continue as it has, only with court approval, a senior DOJ official said. Under the NSA program, U.S. agents were allowed to wiretap Internet and telephone communications into and out of the U.S. in which one participant was suspected to be linked to al Qaeda.

Civil liberties groups had protested the NSA program, saying its lack of court oversight violated the U.S. Constitution. The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has filed a lawsuit against AT&T for allegedly participating in the NSA program, and in August, a U.S. district judge in Michigan ruled the NSA program was illegal.

Bush is "committed to using all lawful tools to protect our nation from the terrorist threat," U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales wrote in a Wednesday letter to members of the U.S. Congress. "Although ... the Terrorist Surveillance Program fully complies with the law, the orders the government has obtained will allow the necessary speed and agility while providing substantial advantages," Gonzales wrote.

Bush will not reauthorize the old NSA program when it expires sometime in the next 45 days, the senior DOJ official, who requested anonymity, said Wednesday. But the FISA-authorized program will have the same capability as the old program, the official said.

The FISA court will approve wiretap requests for 90 days at a time, the DOJ official said. The court will have authority to review individual wiretap requests, but the DOJ official declined to provide specific information about how the FISA program will work.

Bush administration officials denied that the FISA court acted to provide political and legal cover for the NSA program, but the DOJ official said the FISA ruling will allow Congress to step back and look at the wiretap program without legal questions hanging over it. The FISA ruling "should take some of the political heat off the debate," the DOJ official said.

The EFF didn't have an immediate comment on the FISA decision.

http://www.infoworld.com/archives/em...pproved_1.html

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Oppppssss... I guess they are back in business after all!

US DOJ: Surveillance program now court-approved
NSA wiretapping program to be replaced by a FISA program that requires court approval



By Grant Gross, IDG News Service

January 17, 2007


A controversial surveillance program to wiretap telephone and Internet communications in and out of the U.S. will now fall under the jurisdiction of a U.S. court, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Wednesday.



A judge with the secret U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) on Jan. 10 authorized the U.S. government to wiretap phone or Internet communications involving suspected members of al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations, the DOJ said. The FISA-approved surveillance would replace the Terrorist Surveillance Program at the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), authorized by U.S. President George Bush in 2002 to create wiretaps without court-issued warrants.

The FISA ruling will allow the surveillance program to essentially continue as it has, only with court approval, a senior DOJ official said. Under the NSA program, U.S. agents were allowed to wiretap Internet and telephone communications into and out of the U.S. in which one participant was suspected to be linked to al Qaeda.

Civil liberties groups had protested the NSA program, saying its lack of court oversight violated the U.S. Constitution. The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has filed a lawsuit against AT&T for allegedly participating in the NSA program, and in August, a U.S. district judge in Michigan ruled the NSA program was illegal.

Bush is "committed to using all lawful tools to protect our nation from the terrorist threat," U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales wrote in a Wednesday letter to members of the U.S. Congress. "Although ... the Terrorist Surveillance Program fully complies with the law, the orders the government has obtained will allow the necessary speed and agility while providing substantial advantages," Gonzales wrote.

Bush will not reauthorize the old NSA program when it expires sometime in the next 45 days, the senior DOJ official, who requested anonymity, said Wednesday. But the FISA-authorized program will have the same capability as the old program, the official said.

The FISA court will approve wiretap requests for 90 days at a time, the DOJ official said. The court will have authority to review individual wiretap requests, but the DOJ official declined to provide specific information about how the FISA program will work.

Bush administration officials denied that the FISA court acted to provide political and legal cover for the NSA program, but the DOJ official said the FISA ruling will allow Congress to step back and look at the wiretap program without legal questions hanging over it. The FISA ruling "should take some of the political heat off the debate," the DOJ official said.

The EFF didn't have an immediate comment on the FISA decision.

http://www.infoworld.com/archives/em...pproved_1.html

It's not perfect, but it's better. The court ought to have the obligation, not the authority, to review requests. Hopefully it's sloppy reporting.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It's not perfect, but it's better. The court ought to have the obligation, not the authority, to review requests. Hopefully it's sloppy reporting.

Actually, from the article I'm not clear if the judge just hasn't given blanket approval, such as "I approve of you wiretapping anyone you think is a terrorist".

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by richlevy

Actually, from the article I'm not clear if the judge just hasn't given blanket approval, such as "I approve of you wiretapping anyone you think is a terrorist".

That is how I read it. The difference being that it is for 90 days and the agency just needs to come back and reapply.

[TheMercenary]

And the beat goes on....

[tw]

Wiretapping without judicial review is illegal. And that is what was happening startig when the Attorney General that advocates torture also fears all these mythcal terrrorists. Why is he there? Notice the denials from another that fears - TheMercenary. No wonder he so likes the same things that Dick Cheney advocates including more Executive powers and freedom to kidnap anyone anywhere in the world.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

Wiretapping without judicial review is illegal. And that is what was happening startig when the Attorney General that advocates torture also fears all these mythcal terrrorists. Why is he there? Notice the denials from another that fears - TheMercenary. No wonder he so likes the same things that Dick Cheney advocates including more Executive powers and freedom to kidnap anyone anywhere in the world.

I think you are an illegal alien. So since I think that your opinion of what goes on in this country is mute.

[TheMercenary]

Oh, and I have 4 dogs.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Oh, and I have 4 dogs.

It appears you need a bigger one.