Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Griff

We've had lots of liars. LBJ is right there with Wilson and Bush in shear criminality.

Looking at the chart WWI, WWII, and the Korean War were not 'US' Wars. Technically, Afghanistan-Iraq also are not, but with over %90 of the forces involved and probably an even larger percentage of the cost tied to the US, it really is a US-led show.

Was the $3.2 trillion for WWII all from the US?

BTW, the 820 billion for Iraq/Afghanistan only includes current costs, and even then not those buried in defense spending. I'm not sure I trust the $3 trillion figure being thrown around, but I would at least double the 820B if including post-war costs even if the war were called off tomorrow.

In terms of bang for the buck, Iraq will go down in history as the worst strategic blunder the US has ever made.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by richlevy

Was the $3.2 trillion for WWII all from the US?

That is the impression I get from the labeling. The article in Reason it comes from is about the cost of our present war so they would want to minimize the WW2 numbers.

[Undertoad]

Percentage of GDP would show actual impact on the people and the economy.

[Undertoad]

Using this set of GDP data, and a Sharpie on the back of a wet napkin:

Iraq 2: 1.1% of GDP
Iraq 1: 1.2%
Vietnam: 2%
WW2: 56%
WW1: 16%
Span-Amer: 2%
Civil War: 22%

Beyond that I doubt the numbers are meaningful.

Well yeah, it's 1.1% that could surely have been spent more wisely.

This does indicate the difference between "war" and "total war" ala WW2 in which the fight is thought to be for one's very existence as a nation, as a culture. Pretty much the whole banana is avoiding one of those kinds of wars. Whatever we could do to avoid that would be great.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Using this set of GDP data, and a Sharpie on the back of a wet napkin:
Iraq 2: 1.1% of GDP
Iraq 1: 1.2%
Vietnam: 2% ...

Iraq 1 (Desert Storm or Kuwait Liberation) does not tell the entire picture. Because the president back then was more responsible, then the US paid almost nothing for that war. That war was paid for mostly by the entire world. Japan being the largest contributor. Therefore the negative effects on the economy from that war were marginal at best (and yet still the economy took a small downturn).

[tw]

From ABC News of 30 April 2008:

White House admits fault on 'Mission Accomplished' banner
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended," Bush said at the time. "The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on Sept. 11, 2001, and still goes on." The "Mission Accomplished" banner was prominently displayed above him - a move the White House came to regret as the display was mocked and became a source of controversy. ...

Now in its sixth year, the war in Iraq has claimed the lives of at least 4,061 members of the U.S. military. Only the Vietnam War (August 1964 to January 1973), the war in Afghanistan (October 2001 to present) and the Revolutionary War (July 1776 to April 1783) have engaged America longer.

3.5 years to create, train, and deply armies all over the world and win every war. Six years and George Jr cannot even conquer one innocet nation? Meanwhile, when do we go after bin Laden? Mission Accomplished. Protect the bogeyman.

[classicman]

psssst - BOO

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

Meanwhile, when do we go after bin Laden?

When we decide to declare war on Pakistan.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

When we decide to declare war on Pakistan.

We don't need a war to conduct covert operations. But then all efforts to get bin Laden including tracking him, military surveillance, Alex Station, or future intentions – all have been canceled or obstructed by George Jr.

[xoxoxoBruce]

It would be impossible to conduct a covert operation in North-West Frontier Provence.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It would be impossible to conduct a covert operation in North-West Frontier Provence.

Just like it was impossible to do in Afghanistan? Spies can be dispatched almost anywhere - as we had in Afghanistan. Intelligence units (ie Alex Station) would have always existed if we had any intent to go after bin Laden.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The North-West Frontier Provence is a whole different ballgame. A goat can't move without being scrutinized. Rambo would be killed, there.

[tw]

KBR is George Jr's choice for no-bid contracts. KBR properly reflects the attitude and knowledge of our leader. From the NY Times of 4 May 2008:

Despite Alert, Flawed Wiring Still Kills G.I.'s
... the Army bulletin said that five deaths over the preceding year had apparently been caused by faulty grounding, and the circumstances of others have not been fully explained by the Army. Many more soldiers have been injured by shocks, Pentagon officials and soldiers say.

Tens of thousands of grounds must be missing just to have one result in severe electric shock. Electrical grounds are so obvious and easy that it is almost impossible for any honest person to not connect one. Why do so many Americans still get killed? Good thing we saved so much money and therefore don't have all these debts to pay off.

American electricians who worked for KBR ... said they repeatedly warned company managers and military officials about unsafe electrical work, which was often performed by poorly trained Iraqis and Afghans paid just a few dollars a day. ...

KBR itself told the Pentagon in early 2007 about unsafe electrical wiring at a base near the Baghdad airport, but no repairs were made. Less than a year later, a soldier was electrocuted in a shower there. ...

Lawmakers and government investigators say it is now clear that the Bush administration outsourced so much work to KBR and other contractors in Iraq that the agencies charged with oversight have been overwhelmed. The Defense Contracting Management Agency has more than 9,000 employees, but it has only 60 contract officers in Iraq and 30 in Afghanistan to supervise nearly 18,000 KBR employees in Iraq and 4,400 in Afghanistan handling base maintenance.

"All the contract officers can do is check the paperwork," ...

Staff Sgt. Christopher L. Everett, 23, of the Texas National Guard was electrocuted in September 2005 while power-washing a Humvee at Camp Taqaddum, in central Iraq near Falluja. ...

The most recent fatality occurred on Jan. 2 in Baghdad, when Staff Sgt. Ryan D. Maseth, a Green Beret, died in a shower after an improperly grounded water pump short-circuited.

Nearly a year earlier, KBR issued a technical report to the contracting agency citing safety concerns related to the grounding and wiring in the building in the Radwaniyah Palace Complex, where Sergeant Maseth's unit, the Army Fifth Special Forces Group, was housed.

Another soldier said in an interview that he was repeatedly shocked in the shower in December 2007 and submitted requests for repairs. But nothing was done until the day after Sergeant Maseth's death, when the defense agency ordered KBR to correct the problem, according to Pentagon documents.

They are only soldiers - expendable? So lie to mask reality?

Cheryl Harris, Sergeant Maseth's mother, said in an interview that the Army initially told her that her son had taken an electrical appliance into the shower with him. Later, she said, officials told her that investigators had found electrical wires hanging down around the shower. She said she had been skeptical of both accounts and learned the truth only after repeatedly questioning Army officials. ...

"I knew Ryan would not get into a shower with an electrical appliance, and having wires hanging overhead didn't make sense," said Ms. Harris, of Cranberry Township, Pa. "My biggest question is really, why would KBR do a safety inspection, know about the electrical problems and not alert the troops?" ...

In 2006, John McLain was working as a KBR electrician at the United States regional embassy compound in Hilla, south of Baghdad, when he made a disturbing discovery. A KBR quality control inspector had recently cited employees there for failing to file quarterly ground resistance testing logs - reports on whether the wiring in the upgraded embassy building was properly grounded and safe.

Mr. McLain soon realized that the testing was not being conducted, because the building had never been grounded, though KBR and at least one Iraqi subcontractor were supposed to install proper safeguards during a renovation the previous year. Mr. McLain said he had sent a series of increasingly blunt memos and e-mail warnings about the safety hazards to KBR officials.

Mr. McLain said other KBR electricians later created logs that incorrectly made it appear that the grounding system existed. KBR fired him in 2007 after he told a visiting defense contracting agency official about his concerns. His candor proved useless, however. Mr. McLain said that the contracting agency official showed no interest. "He said, I'm not an electrician; I don't know what you are talking about," Mr. McLain recalled.

Noris Rogers, who worked for KBR in Afghanistan in 2005, said he repeatedly complained to his supervisors that electrical work at Camp Eggers, the American military's command base in Kabul, Afghanistan, did not meet the requirements of the company's Pentagon contract.

Mr. Bliss, who saw a soldier in Qalat, Afghanistan, get a severe shock from an electrical box that was not supposed to be charged, said his KBR bosses mocked him for raising safety issues.

Safety grounding is so easy, so obvious, so standard, so simply, and so difficult to get wrong .,. So why does grounding not get done? It’s easier to not do it - but only when top bosses hold nobody responsible or are also on the take. Why does George Jr so often reward KBR - Cheney's company - with so many no-bid contracts?

[Undertoad]

Cheney's "company" is Halliburton. Last year Halliburton sold off KBR, and is now only an oil services company and not an oil and international construction services company.

[xoxoxoBruce]

But wasn't KBR awarded this work while still in the Halliburton (Cheney) family?