God and Devil

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

People in other cultures use different means to pray to different Gods with entirely different goals, yet they describe the enlightenment they get in similar terms.

Having a religious belief is almost universal in humans because it is literally hardwired into the brain. It's a biological mechanism located in the temporal lobes near your ears. You can electomagnetically stimulate this particual area of the brain to cause religious feelings in people who have never had them before. Epiliptics who have suffered damage to their temporal lobes have stronger religious feelings than others. Etc.

The cynic will say that humans delude themselves into believing in a God. The faithful will look at the data and say that this portion of the temporal lobes is like an antenna that tunes in to God, and that God really exists.

There's tons of information out there on this, but here's somethng from the BBC that sums it up pretty well. BBC article human brains and religion

[OnyxCougar]

Oooh! Oooh! Or MAYBE...

there really is a God and people experience him.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Oooh! Oooh! Or MAYBE...

there really is a God and people experience him.

Do you even read other people's posts?

"The faithful will look at the data and say that this portion of the temporal lobes is like an antenna that tunes in to God, and that God really exists."

[OnyxCougar]

Yes I do read other people's posts, Glatt. Do you?

There were other posts about the electrical current in the temporal lobes = religious experiences, making the point that it could all be explained away by science, and inferring that it was nothing more than that. I was responding to that portion of it.

I did see that you had mentioned the antenna thing in the post, but I don't buy into that hypothesis. Science is always trying to quantify God, and it's going to take more than electrical impulses to convince me of that.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Yes I do read other people's posts, Glatt. Do you?

There were other posts about the electrical current in the temporal lobes = religious experiences, making the point that it could all be explained away by science, and inferring that it was nothing more than that. I was responding to that portion of it.

We both know you were responding to my post, not to some post from another time. I foolishly took your bait and went back through the thread again to see where others were talking about the scientific studies of the temporal lobes and their relation to religion. Of course I found none. Perhaps you can point to them directly since I'm obviously blind.

My post was simply to put some cold hard facts out there that can be backed up through repeatable experiments by anyone that has the ability to do so. Nobody else in this thread has added science into the mix in such a specific way. It's all been theories in the absence of facts.

You may not believe in the science, but the people who took part in those experiments beleive that they saw God when their brains were zapped. We can zap them again and they will see God again. Unlike the theory of evolution, it's a repeatable experiment.

You can draw various conclusions from the data, but the data itself is good.

Two obvious conclusions are a) this part of the brain sees God, so God is a hallucination or b) this part of the brain sees God, so God is real.

Perhaps you have a different conclusion?

[Trilby]

Well, actually, I was thinking (as I read the article) that those people sounded more like crazy people (giving birth to jesus, dying) than people who'd experienced what I had. I didn't have thoughts like those--I just felt an overwhelming peace and I felt (for a moment) that I was loved.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by glatt

We both know you were responding to my post, not to some post from another time. I foolishly took your bait and went back through the thread again to see where others were talking about the scientific studies of the temporal lobes and their relation to religion. Of course I found none. Perhaps you can point to them directly since I'm obviously blind.

I don't particularly care to be called a liar. It's on the God? Faith? thread, post # 96, 97 and 98, posted by Troubleshooter about a book he is reading on that very subject.

My post was simply to put some cold hard facts out there that can be backed up through repeatable experiments by anyone that has the ability to do so. Nobody else in this thread has added science into the mix in such a specific way. It's all been theories in the absence of facts.

But there is absolutely NO WAY to say that any given person's religious type experience is a direct result of electrical stimuli in the temporal lobe. Yes, Im sure they can be induced by stimuli, but that doesn't mean ALL RE's are caused by that.

You may not believe in the science,

Of course I believe in science. I just don't swallow some theoretical hypothesis without better evidence than one study.

but the people who took part in those experiments beleive that they saw God when their brains were zapped. We can zap them again and they will see God again. Unlike the theory of evolution, it's a repeatable experiment.

For those people. Not every person has been tested. I haven't seen the results of the study, so I don't know their methodology, or their sample groups. I don't know what them seeing God was like for them, or how that would differ from me seeing God.

You can draw various conclusions from the data, but the data itself is good.

The data is good for those patients. Not necessarily every human will experience the same thing.

Two obvious conclusions are a) this part of the brain sees God, so God is a hallucination or b) this part of the brain sees God, so God is real.

I disagree with that. I think a murderer or Satanist who got zapped may think they see God, but is it really God or is it a product of energized brain neurons firing in a random pattern?

Do you see what I'm saying here? Electrical activity is NOT the same as God revealing himself to you.

Perhaps you have a different conclusion?

Again, I haven't seen the study or taken part in the study, therefore I cannot draw a conclusion regarding that hypothesis.



edit: Just because you don't see something you're looking for doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Catwoman]

I haven't read every page since my last post but I assume it's the same old 'religion is bollocks vs no it's not' debate.

I was just wondering, Mr Noodle, if you would mind posting in detail your exact experience with god - thoughts, feelings, sights, sounds, physiological responses (ie stomach clenching) etc. I would be fascinated to hear about it.

[mrnoodle]

hmm. it's difficult to put into words, gonna have to think on it. i'm afraid you'll be disappointed if you're expecting dramatic physical manifestations, though.
Awe? conviction? happiness? rightness? I've only experienced the kind of thing you're talking about twice - usually God is kind of in the background, reminding and gently prodding, not flying around in the sky with robes billowing and lightning flashing from his beard, which is what most non-believers are looking for as proof.

the sort of experience you're talking about - one of those life-changing moments where all doubt is removed and you know (or hallucinate, if you prefer) that God exists and that he's not only alive but actually in your life - is rare. I experienced it when I first asked Christ into my heart (a Sunday Schoolism that means nothing more than accepting that God is the creator, Jesus is his son, that your sin separates you from God and that you believe Jesus' sacrifice on the cross paid for your sin, and you want to start living for God instead of against him - pretty simple actually). It happened again last year and is a very intensely personal moment for me.

I won't give you much backstory, since the post is already too long, but I had been struggling with sins of various kinds for a couple of years. My refusal to let them go had cost me a lot spiritually, to the point that I felt like God wasn't even listening. This is an alien concept to anyone who isn't down with the whole Christian thing, but bear with me.

I felt like I was just below the surface of the water, looking up and wanting to break free, but feeling like that last kick that would put me above water was just too hard to make. I doubted my salvation, doubted if there was even such a thing. I went to church, talked a good talk, and thought that everything was cool. I didn't see my own arrogance, and didn't realize the reason God hid himself from me was because I really didn't want to know him - I just needed him to get me out of tight spots emotionally and spiritually.

God said 'Ha', to paraphrase Julia Sweeney.

A particular event in my life finally broke me (it wasn't big in itself, but was a trigger) I finally broke, and for the first time in 6 years admitted that I was on the wrong path, and asked God if he was there to reveal himself. Well, he did. I don't remember any physical sensation or sounds (I had a Christian band playing on the stereo, since I needed to learn the song for church band - yah, I was a hypocrite). What I do remember is being overcome with the presence of God. I went to my knees, face on the floor, and cried and prayed for like an hour. No voices, no harps, just being absolutely humbled to the point that taking my face off the carpet would've been presumptuous.

I wish I could describe it better, but there aren't words for some things. I've been high, I've been drunk, I've hallucinated when I had a fever. I've had adrenaline rushes, endorphin floods, and everything else - pursued them as a matter of course, in fact. This was none of those things. It was an external presence that completely filled the room and me, inside and out. Were my temporal lobes stimulated? You betcha. And my heart, and everything about me.

Thinking back on it makes me ashamed of how I've lived since. Thank God he forgives you even when you're not exactly being a team player.

[OnyxCougar]

My husband says he was in the bathroom shaving about 3 years ago, and he was thinking about the same thing, and he felt a "presence" and he heard Jesus talking to him. He too, went to his knees and it took a long time to get up.

My experiences have been much less intense that yours and my husbands, it's been alot more practical experiences (what some people call intuition or conscience or sixth sense), but then, I've had that connection since I became a witch, I just realize what it is now.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

My experiences have been much less intense that yours and my husbands, it's been alot more practical experiences (what some people call intuition or conscience or sixth sense), but then, I've had that connection since I became a witch, I just realize what it is now.

Ok, so you're a witch, who believes in God(tm), and is a literalist creationist?

Did I miss anything?

[Billy]

Is it ok to believe in the religions? Many Muslim people think they should take war to conquer the non-Muslim. I have no any religions, but i think any religions has its advantages and disadvantages. Many people believe religions to satisfy themselves.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

It was an external presence that completely filled the room and me, inside and out.

The external presence that you have labelled 'God' is probably more accurately described as 'Now'.

I wanted you to relate your experience to double-check.

'Now' can happen any time. When you're walking along the street and you suddenly feel an overwhelming wave of elation - you don't understand why but you feel everything is right, as it should be. When you're talking to someone and feel an inexplicable connection that makes your eyes water. When you're sitting on a cliff top looking at nature and you're completely at peace. When you're in a shopping mall and feel fantastic because you realise the stupidity of the masses of blind, confused, poor souls trying to buy their way into now. This is when you are in the moment. You must have heard the phrase a million times but who actually is?

The falling to the knees, the praying... this is because you didn't know what was happening. You knew it was good, knew it was right, and because of years of conditioning you labelled this 'god's presence'. I understand the feeling. I have it maybe three times a week, maybe less, maybe more. It's getting more often anyway.

But this is not a god that insists you go to a building we call a church, that punishes you if you don't sit and pray, that will send you to hell if you blaspheme, that commands respect and idolisation and answers a prayer. Your guilt is unecessary - you can have all the fantastic things you think you have found in god without the ritual, the rules, the rubbish I call religion.

Think about it. How can something so huge, so overwhelmingly spiritual, rely on ritual and guilt?

You can get that feeling again, any day, if you allow yourself complete freedom to be in the now. It's not complicated, it's not amazing, and it's certainly not religion. It's very simple, and anthing else is extraneous.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Ok, so you're a witch, who believes in God(tm), and is a literalist creationist?

Did I miss anything?

Nope. That about sums it up.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

But this is not a god that insists you go to a building we call a church, that punishes you if you don't sit and pray, that will send you to hell if you blaspheme, that commands respect and idolisation and answers a prayer.

You're talking about religion here. That's not what Jesus teaches.

Your guilt is unecessary - you can have all the fantastic things you think you have found in god without the ritual, the rules, the rubbish I call religion.

Exactly! That's religion. It's not a personal relationship with God. BIG difference. I have no guilt, I curse, I don't go to church (my husband does, but that's because he wants to, not because he feels he has to.), I have sex in other than missionary position, I don't confess to a priest, I don't walk around telling people they're going to hell. In short, I'm not religious.

But that doesn't mean I'm not Christian.

Think about it. How can something so huge, so overwhelmingly spiritual, rely on ritual and guilt?

It doesn't.