Who does homosexuality hurt?

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by Yznhymr

All tax payers suffer.

I'm still waiting on an explanation for this one. I don't know how the tax laws work exactly for married couples, but all I knew is that they got a tax break. I have also heard that in some cases married couples end up with penalties. Like how this article explains:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/taxes/p48908.asp

Even if they get a bonus, that's just more of their own tax money they get to keep. How would that make anyone else's taxes go up?

Even so, I think this is a petty argument, to me it sounds like: "Lets deny people human rights to save some money." Anyone like a slice of slavery, or how 'bout some tasty child labor ?

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by classicman

The amount of support given (I assume you are referring to financial here) does not equate with their love for the child. It seems as though you hav a very unusual set of circumstances within your situation. I still don't realy get what they are, but your parents love should never be based upon the amount of financial support they give you. Ya can't buy love.

NO, I was specifically saying, again, that it IS NOT about finacial only. PLEASE classic read more carefully.

Originally Posted by classicman

Emotional support is a totally different matter. Parents should invariably support their children in whatever endeavors the child chooses. Unless it is unhealthy, dangerous or illegal. Again though, I am not certain that these are really relevant to their love. Different parents parent differently.

Again, that is what I said. That was my point.

Originally Posted by classicman

Many children pay for their own tuition and/or books. I don't understand the relevance.

I said, it was in HIGH SCHOOL. You would make your child pay college tuition when their in high school still? They made me pay for my own college, even though I explained to them that it saved time and money. I take the college course, I get dual credit (high school credit as well), therefore I wouldn't have to take essentially the same class over. They thought it was a waste, so the only way I could get it was by paying myself. BTW: My sis did the same thing, except they paid for it.

Originally Posted by classicman

What are you saying then? What are you looking for from your parents that they are apparently not providing, in your opinion?

When I was a teenager, I absolutely hated my father, or thought I did. I thought he favored my older brothers and gave them things that I didn't get. I believed that he talked to them about things and spent more time with them than with me. I carried a lot of ill conceived resentment toward him for many years. I had no idea what his motives were until I was much older and we talked it out. Only then after I matured did I understand his position and reasoning.

I am looking for the support that they clearly give my older brother and sister, and do not give me. Of course according to my older bro I "get away with things he never could." I don't know what those things are. He "got away with" wrecking 2 cars by pulling stupid stunts, living with a woman out of wedlock, sleeping around (before he got married), smoking cigarettes, smoking weed (in the house), underage drinking, drinking and driving....
Point is, I've done none of those things, except living with my partner out of wedlock. My parents have now let him move back twice w/o any conditions. I was supposed to move back (finalized it in mar with them), and instead they let him come back(in Oct he decided to get a car instead a of a house loan), therefore I can't.
Although, I don't think money=love. But the fact that they give them financial support I don't get, shows something is lacking, and its not me. To top it off, anything I try to do/want to do, gets shot down without question. The other two don't get nearly as much negativity about their ability to succeed as I do. If they do, my parent's choose to do it privately, whereas they don't mind publicly humiliating me.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

Which is what I was arguing mainly with you. That should person's family pull their support emotional, financial, educational, etc. , especially your parents because they have responsibility to you, then by that action it shows their lack of love for you. Even if they don't agree with your lifestyle choice, your parents especially, have the responsibility to love you and support you in any way necessary. It doesn't matter if they agree or not, if its against their religion or not. No, perhaps a person should not be surprised if their family pulls support when they come out. That depends on the family, BUT that doesn't mean the family is not in the wrong. If the family is hurt by you being yourself in that way, then that is all on the family. They let themselves be hurt because they are too close minded to care that that is YOU, that you cannot act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person.
That has been all I have been saying, or trying to say at least.

So what would you say then to my grandmother who divorced my grandfather because he was an alcoholic? She tried to stick it out and support his efforts to get sober, but in the end she couldn't take any more and gave him ultimatum: me and the kids or alcohol. He chose to keep drinking and she left. Was she in the wrong for ending her support? He was addicted to alcohol and could not "act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person". Should she have been infinitely tolerant and accepting of his addiction because that's who he was? Supporting him even though he did horrible things that alcoholics tend to do and chose not to seriously change his lifestyle?

Or how about this: my parents paid for my brother's university education. He was expelled for failing 3 semesters and hid this fact from my parents until the day before we were planning on driving down for the graduation ceremonies. My parents were understandably furious at him for lying to them and deceiving them, wasting so much of their time, money, emotional and academic support on someone who didn't care enough to go to class. This was 2 almost two years ago and now he works temp agency jobs in an economically depressed area and is unwilling to move because of his friends in the area. Should my parents now be willing to give him all that support they once gave if he started taking classes again? After he lied, deceived, and took advantage of their trust and support before? Why should we, his family, go that extra mile if he is unwilling to uphold his end of the bargain and not be lazy?

There are limitations to what people can tolerate and should be expected to tolerate, just as there are limitations to how much support one family members needs to extend to another depending upon the situation.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

So what would you say then to my grandmother who divorced my grandfather because he was an alcoholic? She tried to stick it out and support his efforts to get sober, but in the end she couldn't take any more and gave him ultimatum: me and the kids or alcohol. He chose to keep drinking and she left. Was she in the wrong for ending her support? He was addicted to alcohol and could not "act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person". Should she have been infinitely tolerant and accepting of his addiction because that's who he was? Supporting him even though he did horrible things that alcoholics tend to do and chose not to seriously change his lifestyle?

Or how about this: my parents paid for my brother's university education. He was expelled for failing 3 semesters and hid this fact from my parents until the day before we were planning on driving down for the graduation ceremonies. My parents were understandably furious at him for lying to them and deceiving them, wasting so much of their time, money, emotional and academic support on someone who didn't care enough to go to class. This was 2 almost two years ago and now he works temp agency jobs in an economically depressed area and is unwilling to move because of his friends in the area. Should my parents now be willing to give him all that support they once gave if he started taking classes again? After he lied, deceived, and took advantage of their trust and support before? Why should we, his family, go that extra mile if he is unwilling to uphold his end of the bargain and not be lazy?

There are limitations to what people can tolerate and should be expected to tolerate, just as there are limitations to how much support one family members needs to extend to another depending upon the situation.

No, I am still talking about lifestyle choice in the instance of being homosexual. Not being an idiot and using people. "Any way necessary" sometimes means a kick in the ass, or an ultimatum, it can be defined and modified according to the specific people and needs. Again though, parent's have a responsibility to try to help their children, can't just walk away and refuse. That does NOT mean giving them money for nothing ect ect. Calling them on their birthday, asking them over for Christmas (at least sending them a card) ect ect, those are means of emotional support.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

No, I am still talking about lifestyle choice in the instance of being homosexual. Not being an idiot and using people. "Any way necessary" sometimes means a kick in the ass, or an ultimatum, it can be defined and modified according to the specific people and needs. Again though, parent's have a responsibility to try to help their children, can't just walk away and refuse. That does NOT mean giving them money for nothing ect ect. Calling them on their birthday, asking them over for Christmas (at least sending them a card) ect ect, those are means of emotional support.

Agreed, parents do that have that initial responsibility.

[classicman]

So basically what you are saying is that you want your parents to support your homosexuality? Is that it? This has virtually nothing to do with college or financial support at all?

Perhaps I'm the only one who missed that :shrug: wouldn't be the first time.

[DanaC]

Christ on a bike. This isn't so difficult to understand. MTP wants her parents to support her without her having to be something she's not in order to gain that support. She wants the same level of support and emotional sustenance and sensitivity that her siblings apparently get.

It's not a lot to ask. And I really cannot believe how many times MTP has had to say she wasn't referring to money in this thread.

[classicman]

I'm still not sure though what she wants from them. What does "support" mean? Perhaps she is seeing them more as the people they are and realizing they are not who she thought they were. I dunno what she really wants and maybe they don't either. Does she want a hug every time she comes home? Does she want to chitchat with them? It all seems really unclear to me. Things change when a child moves out - perhaps she should try that again. Most parents do NOT treat all their children the same as their children are different and have different needs.

[DanaC]

Have you even read her posts?


[eta] it's not so unusual in families with multiple children for one of those children to end up copping for all the shit and being treated very differently from the others. Often there's no obvious reason why that child gets the thin end. But it happens. Families aren't always such cosy places. Parents sometimes fail their children in fundamental and basic ways, even as they do right by them in others. The child that finds themself in that less than cozy position has every right to feel anger.

Most parents do NOT treat all their children the same as their children are different and have different needs.

It's not about treating them the same in every way or giving them the same things: it's about showing them the same level of regard and concern. It's about giving them equal weight in your mind, and taking account of all of their needs. The examples MTP give are clearly just examples where it's made obvious by the similarity of their needs on those occasions, that equal weight does not appear to have been given to all siblings.

[classicman]

Yup, in fact I just read every one from this thread. Sounds like she is jealous of her older brother or pissed that he got to move back in and now she doesn't. Did her parents know beforehand that she wanted to? I mean before her brother? It seems that moving back in with them is an issue. That, to me would fall under financial support.

Originally Posted by mtp

I am looking for the support that they clearly give my older brother and sister, and do not give me.

This was not defined though. Leaves the reader to assume.

Originally Posted by mtp

He "got away with" wrecking 2 cars by pulling stupid stunts, living with a woman out of wedlock, sleeping around (before he got married), smoking cigarettes, smoking weed (in the house), underage drinking, drinking and driving....
Point is, I've done none of those things, except living with my partner out of wedlock. But the fact that they give them financial support I don't get, shows something is lacking

Again stressing financial support, yet repeatedly stating that is not what she is referring to.

Originally Posted by mtp

Calling them on their birthday, asking them over for Christmas (at least sending them a card) ect ect, those are means of emotional support.

This is what they are not doing? Well that begs a number of questions - Does she see them on Christmas and/or her birthday? Is this common practice in their family? Do they have the money? Do they consider cards and such a waste? I don't know these people at all or what their lives are like. I'm only basing my opinions on one side and although I feel bad for her that she is not happy, there is just too much information missing for me to draw any useful conclusions at all.

MTP, I am very sorry for your situation. I wish it were different and you could all get what you want/need from each other.

[DanaC]

Sorry classic, I went back and added a bunch via an ETA. Hadn't intended it to turn into a whole other post :P

[classicman]

LOL - me too - I added way more than you :p

[DanaC]

I'll also add as one final (and slightly mischievous) point:

reread this portion of MTPs post; but replace MTP as the narrator with a young moslem woman. I have no doubt that there would be voices raised in anger at the moslem faith, and at a culture that disregards females. There is precious little anger in this thread at the Christian faith and a religious culture that disregarded MTP in decisions on her own life.

My parents wanted me to GET MARRIED AT 18! They think me getting a college degree is probably a waste of time. They believe my ex-boyfriend "owns a piece of my soul" because we had sex. That although I was terribly unhappy with him, and with him mainly because he was the first guy to ever pay attention to me, THAT I SHOULD STILL MARRY HIM AT 18! That I should get a SECOND job, and support HIM through school.

I spent FOUR YEARS on anti-depressants, not able to look up from my feet, hiding in my closet or a book. I was suicidal, and took pain-killers recreational. When I wasn't doing these things, I was goin to church or youth group, or praying to God. Trying to be a good Christian, and not understanding why my heart was still devoid, when I had all the "faith" I could muster. When I begged my parents; no I did not "throw a fit," I wrote out all of my arguments, asked them to sit down with me and tried to discuss the issue with them, it ended in literal begging, I begged them to let me stop youth group. I was endlessly harassed at it, not just by other kids, by the youth minister herself. They knew this, they believed it. They made me keep going even though 9 out of 10 times I came home in a complete wreck.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

[eta]It's not about treating them the same in every way or giving them the same things: it's about showing them the same level of regard and concern. It's about giving them equal weight in your mind, and taking account of all of their needs. The examples MTP give are clearly just examples where it's made obvious by the similarity of their needs on those occasions, that equal weight does not appear to have been given to all siblings.

Perhaps, that is all her opinion, I understand, but perhaps her parents don't feel the same way as she does.

[jinx]

Hey classic, did you miss the question I asked you in post #87 or...?