Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me....

[LSMFT]

So hating Bush is "trendy" in Europe? I'm not even going to try to defend that despicable dunderhead, but when did Europeans ever like American presidents? I was stationed at Upper Heyford RAFB in the 80's, and traveled/worked all over Europe. Reagan, again, no defense here, was HATED everywhere, and being in the military working mostly with local civilians, I was constantly berated for his policies. I've also visited several times as a child, and also in the last few years. It's always the same for me, "Oh, I don't like Americans, but you are O.K." like I'm getting priviledged gossip. I've only been able to come to two conclusions on this, either we're just a HUGE stupid target, or that they truly resent our waste of potential. One thing I do know, is that they all really do love cowboy movies, especially in Germany.

[jaguar]

Europe is far further to the left, your left wing is right of our right wing most of the time, tends to be why we particularly dislike your right wing leaders. Clinton is pretty popular over here. Jinx, travelled much?

[jinx]

Nope, not at all jag. Your point?

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by jaguar

Europe is far further to the left, your left wing is right of our right wing most of the time, tends to be why we particularly dislike your right wing leaders. Clinton is pretty popular over here. Jinx, travelled much?

It figures. Sadaam liked him too. Clinton was a power-abusing, wishy-washy idiot. Don't bother to defend him if you like him. I'm not issuing a challenge, just stating my opinion.

[jaguar]

Just how aware you are/aren't about the opinion of americans outside america.
Every major nationality has different connotations in most people's head. Since I've got enough passports to play cards with I'm particularly aware of this. I call Australian I get the 'g'day mate' and shrimp on the barbie stuff, Swiss gets me fairly close to a blank slate, maybe something about banks or cookoo clocks, British means people avoid giving you an opportunity to show off your teeth. America mostly gets loud, obnoxious, arrogant, jingoistic and insensitive. It's not entirely fair but it's a fact.

Jinx, you sound a bit defensive. First of all, let me assure you that my aunt is not some knee jerk American basher. She graduated from a Swiss University and spent most of her career working with children, teaching kindergarteners. And, yes, in Switzerland, even a Kindergarten teacher has to have a university degree and it's a specialized training. So Aunt Elsa will ask me things like "why do you Americans have such a high infant mortality rate?" The US has one of the highest death rates of infants in the Western world - truely deplorable in comparison with other First World countries. Or she will ask, "Why do you Americans seem to have so little regard for education?" when speaking of American high school drop-out rates as compared to Switzerland where literally no one drops out of school. Stuff like that.

[jinx]

Jag, I'm sorry, but so what? I realize people all over the globe like to generalize and stereotype, from nationalities to race and gender, that's certainly no secret only you and Marco Polo are privy to. Do you know Mari's aunt Elsa (or her travel history)? Because I was specifcally asking about her.

I'm not defensive, it's nothing new to see someone try to pass off ignorant generalizations as "very intelligent, highly educated" ponderings. So, she would express bewilderment at American customs like high infant mortality and dropping out of school? I see.

My Aunt Elsa has traveled extensively in Great Britain, France, Italy, Greece, Turkey, and the USSR to name a few. She has avoided coming to the US because she fears its reputation for violence. She is now in her 60's and is less adventuresome than she used to be. As to her questions regarding American customs, she wonders why Americans overseas seem to be so loud and disrespectful (this asked when a group of obnoxious American tourists chattered thru a service that we were attending in one of Luzern's ancient cathedrals.

Oh yeah, I would hardly call it an ignorant generalization to look at our high infant mortality rates and high school drop out rates and wonder why. Those things are fact. And regarding the noisy tourists in the Cathedral, my Aunt said, "Well, they are young. Perhaps that is the reason." I don't know why you would view her honest puzzlement and her desire to understand as negatives. What? Do you have something to hide about our country that I don't?

[jinx]

So Elsa has traveled extensively in countries where it's 'trendy' to be anti-american, never actually visited america, and is basing her judgments of americans on tourists? Give me a break, everyone hates tourists. They invade the cool place you live, make it all crowded and somehow cheapen it with their presence. I grew up in a resort town - we hated all tourists, but the Canadians were the worst. Looking back, I have no idea why, but that's what everyone always said. Damn Canadians.

Any US OB will tell you the high rate of infant mortality is the result of better prenatal care nurturing higher risk pregnancies, as well as increased number of multiples due to fertility treatments. Any US midwife will tell you that's bullshit. A better question I would think would be; why are black babies in the US 2.5 times more likely to die in their first year than white babies? But anyway, I guess you and I have different ideas about what a “custom” is. That's what initially intrigued me - I just wanted you to finish your sentence.

Originally Posted by jinx

So Elsa has traveled extensively in countries where it's 'trendy' to be anti-american, never actually visited america, and is basing her judgments of americans on tourists? Give me a break, everyone hates tourists. They invade the cool place you live, make it all crowded and somehow cheapen it with their presence. I grew up in a resort town - we hated all tourists, but the Canadians were the worst. Looking back, I have no idea why, but that's what everyone always said. Damn Canadians.

Any US OB will tell you the high rate of infant mortality is the result of better prenatal care nurturing higher risk pregnancies, as well as increased number of multiples due to fertility treatments. Any US midwife will tell you that's bullshit. A better question I would think would be; why are black babies in the US 2.5 times more likely to die in their first year than white babies? But anyway, I guess you and I have different ideas about what a “custom” is. That's what initially intrigued me - I just wanted you to finish your sentence.

Er, just where IS Elsa supposed to travel where Americans are welcomed with open arms? If you are saying that Great Britain, Italy and the rest of our allies overseas hate us, that's a pretty broad indictment in itself. As far as the USSR, Elsa went there out of curiosity. She and the rest of my family and everyone else I ever encountered in Switzerland had nothing but contempt for the Soviet Union under communism.

Elsa and I have also talked about race relations in the States. Its one more thing that perplexes the Europeans about our country, and given modern European history, something they are very sensitive to.

You are really jumping to conclusions when you assume Elsa has some unreasoning dislike for the US. She asked questions because she was curious and you can hardly expect a Swiss to have the same understanding of what's behind various statistics about the US as you and I do. That's why she asks. And as I noted in my example of the noisey tourists above - Elsa cut them more slack than I would have myself - ultimately blaming their behavior on their youth rather then their nationality.

I might give you your same advice as you give my Aunt: Travel in Europe yourself before you jump to conclusions about why the Europeans may feel about us as they do. We are so arrogant here in the States. There are NO homeless people on the streets of Switzerland. People do not lack for medical care or go bankrupt trying to obtain it. In the US 13.6% of our population gets by with $11.00 or less per day in real purchasing power (UN statistic). In comparison, prosperous Switzerland does not even fit anywhere on the same UN chart. The statistic simply does not apply to the Swiss population. I can walk the streets of Switzerland's capitol city of Zurich alone at 2:00am without fear. I am wary of doing the same thing in D.C. at 2:00 pm, forget 2:00 am.

So many people seem to imply or even state outright that if one points out the things wrong with the US then one is somehow unpatriotic or anti-American. I do not understand this. If I admit to some personal failing, does this mean I am against myself? I think it takes courage to admit to one's flaws, whether this is done by an individual or a country. As difficult as it may be, honest self scrutiny is vital. Without it we can never correct our own mistakes. Only a small man never admits to his errors. Greatness is in saying, "Here I was mistaken, and these are the steps I will take to ensure that I don't do this again." Then following the words with the action. If we Americans remain willfully blind to our country's failings out of some misplaced sensed of patriotism or for any other reason, we can only go downhill both as a country and as a people.

[jaguar]

It's trendy to be anti-american pretty much everywhere but america. That's the point.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by jaguar

It's trendy to be anti-american pretty much everywhere but america. That's the point.

Well, then, let's all be slaves to fashion.

[busterb]

Well said

[xoxoxoBruce]

There are NO homeless people on the streets of Switzerland.

Where are they?

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Where are they?

At home!