Save Katie Holmes!

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Spiritual, not religious? That brand?

I'm not spiritual in that I don't mystify the unknown or unexplained. Things occur in life that are not explainable without a leap of faith, so to speak. I refuse to accept an explanation that isn't an explanation but is a salve to heal the discomfort of ignorance. To me, that is what religion, and to most extents sprirituality, is. It is an attempt to tell people that it's ok that the lightning struck your house and burned it to the ground. It's just saying that the Thunder God(tm) was unhappy about something instead of saying "How the fuck should I know?"

And as to my brand of athiesm, I mean it in the literal sense. Non-theism. How can I have a religion if I don't recognize a spiritual existance. Now, as to my opinion about a spiritual component to life; I have yet to see a legitimate, verifiable, reproduceable, etc. instance of one.

But I'm also cognizant of my own ignorance, as well as that of others, so I am, with proper evidence, quite willing to concede the possibilities of the paranormal.

And for clarity's sake, supernatural is a null word in my opinion. Either something exists, or it does not. If it does, it is natural. If it does not, then it is Not. Paranormal is only a referrence to what has been shown to be extant and what has not. Once it is proven, it ceases to be paranormal.

Originally Posted by Brianna

Whatever works (does that make me a pragmatist? I'm not). You can't just mean that a cult is simply the odd-man out at the latest party. A cult distorts doctrines of other faiths, especially pertaining to salvation (however that is defined) making salvation virtually unattainable. You get nowhere in a cult. Even Christians are more palatable than that! At least they tell you that jesus loves you just as you are!

Christians are more palatable now. To the pantheistic Romans they were exactly what you describe a cult to be. See the Egyptian model as well.

Originally Posted by Brianna

But, seriously, I don't agree that all religions started as cults. Depends on the defintion of cult. And Wicca wasn't specific to the Celts and Picts only. Not everyone painted themselves blue and ran around with their hair on fire. Go back and trace the roots of Wicca and you find that road leads so far into pre-history that you can't know it's origins.

To me, defining cult is based on its etymology. Notice the prevailing usage, hiding. See the OED*.

It doesn't matter which time frame you examine, it's a basic theme to be hidden at first, to protect yourself and your fellow adherents until you grow large enough to impact your social-political environment. Then you either insinuate yourself so thoroughly that you are impossible to eradicate or you possess enough strength of arms to to resist or destroy the other guy.

*[< classical Latin occultus secret, hidden from the understanding, hidden, concealed, past participle of occulere to cover up, hide, conceal < ob- OB- + the stem of which a lengthened form is seen in c{emac}l{amac}re to hide (see CELE v.), cognate with Old Irish celim (Irish ceil), Welsh celu to hide, conceal (12th-13th cent.), Old High German helan to hide, conceal (see HELE v.1). Cf. Anglo-Norman and Middle French, French occulte secret (first half of the 12th cent. in Anglo-Norman; also in Anglo-Norman as oculte (first half of the 12th cent.)), Italian occulto (1308), Spanish oculto (1438), Catalan ocult (1481), Portuguese oculto (16th cent.). With use as noun cf. classical Latin occulta secrets, use as noun of neuter plural of occultus (see above), and French occulte secret thing (1821). Cf. slightly earlier OCCULT v.
With occult philosophy (see quot. 1651 at sense 1b) cf. post-classical Latin occulta philosophia, title of a work by H. C. Agrippa (1531), and French philosophie occulte (1603 or earlier). With occult sciences (see quots. 1711, 1903 at sense 1b) cf. French sciences occultes (1690).
With occult qualities (see sense 2c) cf. French qualités occultes (1677). With occult line (see sense 3b) cf. French ligne occulte (1690).]

A. adj. I. General uses.

1. a. Not disclosed or divulged, secret; kept secret; communicated only to the initiated. Now rare.

b. Of or relating to magic, alchemy, astrology, theosophy, or other practical arts held to involve agencies of a secret or mysterious nature; of the nature of such an art; dealing with or versed in such matters; magical.

2. a. Not apprehended, or not apprehensible, by the mind; beyond ordinary understanding or knowledge; abstruse, mysterious; inexplicable.

{dag}b. Of a thing or phenomenon: not affecting, or detectable by, the senses; imperceptible. Obs.

c. Science (now hist.). Of a property or matter: not manifest to direct observation; discoverable only by experiment; unexplained; latent. Also: {dag}dealing with such qualities, experimental (obs.).

3. a. Hidden from sight; concealed (by something interposed); not exposed to view.

{dag}b. Of a line, etc.: drawn as an aid in the construction of a figure, but intended to be erased or covered; (also) dotted. Obs.

c. Med. Of a disease: hidden, concealed, difficult to detect; unaccompanied by readily discernible signs or symptoms; spec. designating a primary neoplasm that is initially detected only indirectly, esp. by its metastases. Formerly (also): {dag}inexplicable, obscure (obs.).

II. Special uses.

4. occult bleeding Med. [after German Okkulte(magen)blutung (I. Boas 1901, in Deutsch. Med. Wochenschr. 16 May 315/2) < okkult occult + Magen stomach (see MAW n.1) + Blutung bleeding], haemorrhage, esp. in the gastrointestinal tract, that results in occult blood. occult blood Med., blood, esp. in faeces or stomach contents, that is present in an amount too small to be visible, and that is detectable only by chemical or other laboratory tests.

B. n.

{dag}1. A hidden or secret thing. Obs. rare.

2. With the. The realm of the unknown; the supernatural world or its influences, manifestations, etc.; (collectively) magic, alchemy, astrology, and other practical arts of a secret or mysterious nature (see OCCULT a. 1b). Cf. OCCULTISM n.

C. v.
1. trans. a. To hide, conceal; to cut off from view by interposing something. Also fig.

b. Astron. Of a celestial object: to conceal (an apparently smaller object) from view by passing or being in front. Cf. OCCULTATION n. 2b, ECLIPSE v. 2.

2. intr. Of a lighthouse light: to be cut off from view as part of its cycle of light and dark.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Sheesh....talk about obfuscation.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Sheesh....talk about obfuscation.

What the hell are you talking about?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

What the hell are you talking about?

cult n.
1- a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or sect.

2- A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

3- The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.

4- A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

5- a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such devotion.

6- An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
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[Latin cultus, worship, from past participle of colere, to cultivate; see kwel-1 in Indo-European roots.]
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cultic or cultish adj.
cultism n.
cultist n.

AS OPPOSED TO.

oc·cult adj.
1- Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.

2- Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.

3-Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at mysterious.

3-Hidden from view; concealed.

4- a. Medicine Detectable only by microscopic examination or chemical analysis, as a minute blood sample. b. Not accompanied by readily detectable signs or symptoms: occult carcinoma.

n. Occult practices or techniques: a student of the occult.
v. oc·cult·ed, oc·cult·ing, oc·cults (-klt)
v. tr.
To conceal or cause to disappear from view.
Astronomy To conceal by occultation: The moon occulted Mars.
v. intr.
To become concealed or extinguished at regular intervals: a lighthouse beacon that occults every 45 seconds.

----------------------------------------------------------------
[Latin occultus, secret, past participle of occulere, to cover over; see kel-1 in Indo-European roots.]
----------------------------------------------------------------
oc·cultly adv.
oc·cultness n.

You're mixing apples and oranges and cider don't come from oranges.

[wolf]

I thought that the first season of Millenium was awesomely creepy ... but I remain sorely disappointed that the issue of Scully's Ourobouros tattoo was never resolved or linked to the new series ...

I didn't find the second season of Millenium as interesting.

[Troubleshooter]

The second season seemed a bit more all over the place.

I like it so far though, and I'm half way through.

[Troubleshooter]

And where the hell did Brianna go?

I was hoping she had a little more for me.

[Trilby]

Why, TS, I didn't know you cared. You aren't thru making fun of me? Come and get me, big boy.

[Troubleshooter]

I'm not making fun of anyone. I think that, if you dig through my posts, you'll find that I take religion and spirituality seriously. If I didn't take it seriously I wouldn't put so much effort into disecting it and its implications and applications.

I think that you'll also find in my posts to you that I only pointed out serious and founded opinions about the definitions of the concept of "cult" and the root causes and continuing cycle of religion.

Do you put as much effort into your faith and religion as I put into the faith and religion of people other than myself?

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Do you put as much effort into your faith and religion as I put into the faith and religion of people other than myself?

I don't espouse any religion. I do not fit into any category. I've my beliefs like anyone and my relationship with a Higher Being(s) is personal and, happily, so far, it's worked for me. I wouldn't presume to think it would work for anyone else--it probably wouldn't. As to your question whether I put effort into it-yes. I work at the relationship, cultivating it, exploring it, watching it grow and finding peace and happiness in it. I love experiencing the love of the Universe. I like exploring the beliefs of other people and- honest!-I don't usually belittle them. The CoS is just too ripe for examination and it doesn't hold up. To embrace the beliefs of a misanthropic, wife-beating, money-hungry science fiction writer who purports to absolve but only when currency changes from your hand to his and uses brain-washing techniques to get you to do it is not 'religion',it's sad and it's criminal. A lot of people think L. Ron is dead. I hope he is and I hope he's answering in some way for what he's done. Before I read the web articles on him and his "church" I knew nothing of scientology. I was shocked at it's doctrine. I can't believe people swallow this stuff. That's all I was saying.

Your multiple definitions of cult made me think you were mocking me.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Brianna

I don't espouse any religion. I do not fit into any category. I've my beliefs like anyone and my relationship with a Higher Being(s) is personal and, happily, so far, it's worked for me. I wouldn't presume to think it would work for anyone else--it probably wouldn't.

Your mention of your paradigm being uniquely yours reminds me of a question that has been knocking around in the back of my head for a couple weeks now.

Isn't it possible, that by definition, church and/or religion is contradictory to faith? Take a sip of that, roll it around in your mouth for a bit and tell me all of the varying flavors you can taste. It's a new idea for me and I haven't explored all of the possibilities but it has real potential if you're willing to ponder it.

Isn't faith supposed to be entirely unique?

Wouldn't seeking external validation be antithetical to the whole idea of authoritative revelatory knowledge?

Originally Posted by Brianna

As to your question whether I put effort into it-yes. I work at the relationship, cultivating it, exploring it, watching it grow and finding peace and happiness in it. I love experiencing the love of the Universe. I like exploring the beliefs of other people and- honest!-I don't usually belittle them.

The reason I asked about how much effort you put into your faith is because there are so many people out there who parrot their religion at me, chapter and verse, but lack any understanding of cultural contexts, history, or even their own hearts. They're nothing more than religious automata.

And as to belittling other people's religions and beliefs I will continue to point out things that I think are inconsistent, unprovable, illogical, unreasonable and just plain stupid no matter where I see it. Religion doesn't get a free pass just because it makes people uncomfortable when I talk about it. More importantly, don't you think that religion, as powerful and prevalent as it is, should be held to a higher scrutiny considering its profound impact on the lives of so many people?

Originally Posted by Brianna

The CoS is just too ripe for examination and it doesn't hold up. To embrace the beliefs of a misanthropic, wife-beating, money-hungry science fiction writer who purports to absolve but only when currency changes from your hand to his and uses brain-washing techniques to get you to do it is not 'religion',it's sad and it's criminal. A lot of people think L. Ron is dead. I hope he is and I hope he's answering in some way for what he's done. Before I read the web articles on him and his "church" I knew nothing of scientology. I was shocked at it's doctrine. I can't believe people swallow this stuff. That's all I was saying.

Can't you look at most of the popular religions out there today and say that they have the same methodologies? Seriously. The only difference between scientology and the others is a question of time and better technology. They both ultimately fill the same niche in a person's heart. The only thing scientology is lagging in is the body count.

Originally Posted by Brianna

Your multiple definitions of cult made me think you were mocking me.

Not at all. I was showing how the origin of the word was rooted in so many other disciplines but still had the same meaning no matter which book you pick up. A "cult" is something that is "occult" or hidden. Cult is just a vulgarization of the larger word. And so is the definition.

This is how I think.

[Elspode]

Any religion can be a cult. It isn't the material, it is the way it is propagated.

[Trilby]

Ok, OK *wipes brow* enough with the definitions! Can't we just agree that the future Mrs. Cruise is in for a whopper of a freaky time? I went to go see War of the Worlds yesterday and all I could think about was that Tom really, really believes space alien souls used to control his brain until he paid his way clear of them. I must admit though when he took his shirt off and laid down on the bed I couldn't have cared less what his philosophical leanings were. But sex always comes to an end-more's the pity-and then I would have to listen to him.

The thing that is really breaking my heart is that my home-girl, Nancy Cartwright, is one of these nuts, too. So, so sad!

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Ok, OK *wipes brow* enough with the definitions! Can't we just agree that the future Mrs. Cruise is in for a whopper of a freaky time?

Agreed

[Silent]

http://www.tomcruiseiscrazy.com/