Isolationism

Bush offered the nation a modest menu of energy, health and education proposals and warned against the "false comfort of isolationism" in a State of the Union address on Tuesday.

Isolationism

Wednesday 04 January 2005

The American Congress has voted in the most restrictive anti-immigration law of recent decades. The text provides for the erection of walls along certain parts of the border. Five sections of wall from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean along the Border States: California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. Totaling 1,000 kilometers [621 miles] - a third of the border - this wall, 4.5 meters [almost fifteen feet] high, is supposed to be lit by watchtowers and swept by cameras.Commentators compare these concrete blocks to the Berlin Wall or the Wall recently built in the Palestinian territories.

Mexico

What do you think about the proposed wall separating Mexico and the States?

What do you think about the Berlin wall?

What do you think about wall separating the Palestinians from Israel?

What do you think about Bush’s bullshit about "false comfort of isolationism"?

What do you think of the fact that Canadians can tip-toe across the States border at will, and easily impersonate Americans by wearing jeans which show the top of our ass crack when we bend over?

I missed the address. I would have enjoyed bush giving us his unique interpretation when he attempted to say the word isolationism.

[Radar]

Mexican Wall = Bad
Berlin Wall = Bad
Israel Wall = Good

[glatt]

I didn't watch the speech. Life is too short to spend watching stuff like that. I updated the contents of my iPod instead, and bought a set of earphones off e-bay.

Walls are not neighborly or friendly. I would prefer a world where walls were not needed. A wall to keep people in against their will (like the Berlin wall) is far worse than a wall to keep people out (like the Israeli wall and the US southern border wall.) I think I understand the rational for both the US and Israeli walls, but don't care for either.

Thoughtful posts, ty.

Love to hear from anybody who heard how he handled the word, “isolationism”.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

I think I understand the rational for both the US and Israeli walls, but don't care for either.

A classic example of those who think using a head between their legs verses those who use a head between their shoulders. Ask yourself why those walls exist? Would it not be smarter to eliminate reasons for those walls? History demonstrates walls - ie demilitarized zone between North and South Vietnam - do not work. With divisions of troops, electronic surveillence, air attacks, etc - still that wall did not work.

Those who think with a head between their legs never bother to look beyond what they see AND never ask why. It is the difference between a strategic thinker verses one who follows propaganda. Remember, there was no bombings, terrorism, and a need for that wall in Israel before 2000. What changed?

How many walls were failures. The 30 foot wall between Egypt and Israel never stopped anything. The Great Wall of China was a proven failure - but they kept building it anyway. The wall between Syria and Iraq does nothing even though militaries on both sides reinforce that wall. US Mexican border wall is based upon same knee jerk thinking. Notice how those who advocate the wall never bother to first learn why problems exists. The difference between a leader with intelligence verses a blind follower of Rush Limbaugh. Rush Limbaugh followers only know what they see - nothing more. They routinely and repeatedly don't ask why - such as the question I ask here. Those who bother to learn that which makes intelligence, then, would ask why that wall is suddenly necessary.

I have posted reasons why, often and previously. So you tell me. Why is each wall necessary?

[glatt]

I never said that I supported building any of the walls in the example. I was simply saying that I understand the desire to build the the Mexico and Palestine walls.

To answer your question, the reasons for walls are pretty simple. It's to keep undesirable people out.

Of course, you already knew that. You want me to defend these walls as the best way to prevent terrorism in Israel and prevent illegal immigrants from flooding into the US. I'm not convinced they are the best way, so I won't be arguing that point with you.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

To answer your question, the reasons for walls are pretty simple. It's to keep undesirable people out.

Good. Why are those people undesireable and why must they be kept out? You still have not answered the question.

Of course, you already knew that.

Of course I did not know that ... since I posted example after example where walls failed to address a problem when leaders used 'sound byte' reasoning. But show me. Show me the problem solved by a US Mexico wall (or did you forget lessons in the movie 'Traffic'?). Show me why an Israeli West Bank wall solves what creates that problem? To advocate walls, one must first explain why the problem exists. What is this 'simple' reason that suddenly makes walls necessary. To keep undersireable people out does not even begin to say why the problem exists or what the problem really is. Why are these people undesireable?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by tw

Good. Why are those people undesireable and why must they be kept out? You still have not answered the question.

Why do people want to ban gay marriage? Because they are uncomfortable with gays. But banning gay marriage won't solve their problem. Just because A is a reason for B doesn't mean that B will help A. In this case, the wall is a symptom of the problem, not a solution.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

In this case, the wall is a symptom of the problem, not a solution.

Fine. But still - what is the problem? In another thread, Democrats are accurately defines as (essentially) bankrupt of good ideas. Here is but another example of a Democratic Party avoiding what should be a national question - not just a Cellar question. What is the problem that has created this 'knee-jerk need' for walls?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

snip~ You want me to defend these walls as the best way to prevent terrorism in Israel and prevent illegal immigrants from flooding into the US. I'm not convinced they are the best way, so I won't be arguing that point with you.

Nope, the wall in Israel is to keep the Jews in one place so we can kill off 13 million to force the second coming. Don't you know anything?

[glatt]

What are you getting at, tw?

You know why Israel wants to keep the Palestinians out. It's because a small subset of their numbers are trying to blow the Israelis up.

You also know that the US has a love/hate relationship with illegal immigrants. While they do provide cheap labor, they are a burden on our society without paying into it.

Is your question "why now?" Or is it simply "why?"

I don't know why it's a big problem now. Probably because since 9/11 a lot of people are afraid. Even though the terrorists came in through Canada, the Mexicans are easier to be afraid of. They don't speak English and they look different.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

What are you getting at, tw?

You know why Israel wants to keep the Palestinians out. It's because a small subset of their numbers are trying to blow the Israelis up.

Why did Arab Israeli terrorism stop *completely* in the late 1990s? What changed that created 2000+ terrorism? There was no need for walls in the late 1990s. What changed?

Assumption that illegal immigraton causes undo stress on American resources has long been proven wrong. It can cause isolated problem where, for example, the most productive source of America's future - immigrants legal and illegal - require education and other investments in America's future. But long term, illegal immigation has been beneficial to the United States. Meanwhile why does this illegal immigration exist? Also why was it not a major problem decades ago? What changed?

What changed that caused this need for a wall? I keep asking this question. Not one response has yet to even approach an answer. Every answer goes to some propaganda idea that 'they are not wanted', or that they are illegal and therefore must be bad. Ok. Why?

Why did the Demilitarized Zone wall in Vietnam fail so catastrophically? Go right back to same principles that are not being addressed here. What is this problem that a wall is suppose to solve? I read popular myths. But I have yet to read a concrete fact. What exactly is the reason for this problem?

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Nope, the wall in Israel is to keep the Jews in one place so we can kill off 13 million to force the second coming. Don't you know anything?

Well according to administration policies over the past five years, we have all but encouraged Iran to finish each other off with nuclear weapons. The funniest part is that this conclusion is half humorous and half true.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Well, TW, in the world according to DOV, it's the agenda.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Well, TW, in the world according to DOV, it's the agenda.

My vanity thanks you.

The Security Fence is being built with the sole purpose of saving the lives of the Israeli citizens who continue to be targeted by the terrorist campaign that began in 2000. The fact that over 800 men, women and children have been killed in horrific suicide bombings and other terror attacks clearly justifies the attempt to place a physical barrier in the path of terrorists.

It should be noted that terrorism has been defined throughout the international community as a crime against humanity. As such, the State of Israel not only has the right but also the obligation to do everything in its power to lessen the impact and scope of terrorism on the citizens of Israel.

http://www.securityfence.mod.gov.il/.../questions.htm

Supporters regard it as a necessary tool protecting Israeli civilians from terrorist attacks that have plagued the country since the start the Al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000 and regard it as a major causal factor in reducing incidents of terrorism by 90% from 2002 to 2005.

As of January 2006 the length of the barrier as approved by the Israeli government is 670 kilometers. Approximately 36 % has been constructed, 25 % is under construction, 20 % has been approved but construction has not yet begun, and the remaining 19 % awaits final approval

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier

Your turn.