What it means to be an American

[jonesieQ]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I don't doubt it one bit. I'm in the middle of this book, Nickel and Dimed and it has really opened my eyes as to why people are trapped in low wage jobs, not to mention why no one has time or energy to stand up for anything, anymore. I have no doubt the system is this way by design, either.

Excellent book...sad and depressing, but pulls us out of the trees to see the forest. And there's no question that the vortex has given industry, government and the wealthy a free pass for decades. Thank you Mr. Greenspan, et al..

[xoxoxoBruce]

[quote=jonesieQ]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do.

Maybe a comma between Primal's "capitalistic" and "ideals" should be added. But insisting that we have first rate "capitalistic ideals" isn't exactly a compliment. ~snip

Duh.
He may not like capitalistic ideals but can't acuse them of being second rate ones.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by jonesieQ

snip~ Our government hasn't been doing the job they're being paid to do. Instead they're trying to cure our (their) ills by becoming Big Brother.

Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were elected to do.

The problem I think Primal was noting is that instead of fighting back, many Americans have become complacent and apathetic. A good point to make is that it's really difficult to fight back...the vortex that this economic system has us sucked into is powerful and disempowering. There's no time to fight, and little energy. (Exactly what you said about 'having a mortgage, six kids...', etc.) The economics we live by have us hogtied, and industry and finance know that. But something's got to break soon...Americans typically will only tolerate so much.

I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together.
I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.

If you recall, at 21 people like you look a lot like part of The System, Bruce. ;-)

[primal muse]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were elected to do.
I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together.
I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.

you get an a for being totally presumptuous. ive probably faced more trial in my 21 years than you have in your entire life time.

[jonesieQ]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were elected to do.

The people I've voted for CAN'T do their job because they're outnumbered by an administration and Congress that WON'T let them.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together..

I know exactly how that goes...but at the same time, that's like saying the system accomplished its mission...to so discourage change, to turn such a deaf ear, that there's no alternative but to hunker down, nose to the grindstone, and try to survive. Also known as oppression.

At 21 maybe Primal is frightened by the current conditions. I know I was - way back when. And way back then we did something about it. We marched, took tear gas, bled, some died, but we persisted, and our world changed. Difference today? Not enough of the young are united under a common banner. They're the only ones who are free enough of the vortex to get out there and make the change happen...that's what pisses me off when youth complains. Don't like it....THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...we did...it's now their turn.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Come back when you've got a wife and 6 kids, a mortgage and bills up to your ears.

Sounds like the definition of selfish...or ignorant...or both. After the third kid you should know why they're happening.

[primal muse]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do. Secondly, I haven't pushed anybody out of the way to get foriegn oil since the '73 embargo. Don't confuse the government/industry with individual Americans. Come back when you've got a wife and 6 kids, a mortgage and bills up to your ears. Then tell us how much you're worrying and what you're doing to straighten out the system. What do you live forever? Why? So you can tell other people they should be doing what you think is best for them?Isn't that what we pay them for?. No, you wake up.
If you don't like the was this country operates you've got 2 choices. Either find someplace else to live or change it...I honestly suggest the latter.
On the other hand, if you just want to tell me what to think, how to feel and how to live......well, let's just say, Homey don't play dat.

where in that breif paragraph did i imply that you were spposed to think the way i do?
i really dont have the time to dignify your ignorance as it might take me all day.

let me guess, youre also republican?

and if our capitilistic ideasl arent second rate then how come our country is in such deep debt to other countries that its frightening?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by primal muse

and if our capitilistic ideasl arent second rate then how come our country is in such deep debt to other countries that its frightening?

The way that it works is that other countries are in deep debt to us.

Nobody's paid us for WWII yet. Oh wait, I kind of remember hearing that maybe Finland did ...

My sig line contains a quote from a book that you have to read.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by wolf

Nobody's paid us for WWII yet. Oh wait, I kind of remember hearing that maybe Finland did ...

Well, actually, lend lease payments from the UK might be completed at the end of this year.

BTW, at no point have we lent out the trillion dollars in debt that are held in Asia.

Together, the East Asian countries have accumulated foreign currency surpluses of nearly $1 trillion, much of it held in US Treasury bonds denominated in dollars.

[jonesieQ]

Nice job, Primal...and don't apologize for seeming unpatriotic....bottom line, the real patriots are the critics...without them, we'd lose our democracy - or what's left of it.

[primal muse]

Originally Posted by jonesieQ

Nice job, Primal...and don't apologize for seeming unpatriotic....bottom line, the real patriots are the critics...without them, we'd lose our democracy - or what's left of it.

we dont have one
thomas jefferson said that deomcracy probably wouldnt last for more than 200 years. he was right.
i dont even see why people bother to vote. its complete symbolism of freedom. unless the electoral college ok's the vote of the majority of the people then to hell with that. or in some cases if you have a brother who is a governer in a certain state it doesnt matter what the rest of the country says.
they leave us under the false pretense of having freedom of choice and take it away very subtly.

[jonesieQ]

No question, we're losing our guaranteed freedoms everyday. But one good thing about this democracy is that it cycles historically. There are social movements that keep and/or restore democratic principles on a fairly regular basis. Some are more notable than others, but the history of this country says they go on far more frequently than in most histories. I think that's the problem....we're long overdue....it's been building for quite a while...I don't know about you, but I have a sense of pressure building, of something imminent. Many of us seem to be holding our breaths, waiting for the upheaval. I'd rather have that than this suffocating, paralyzing disintegration of our rights. And if we handle the upcoming upheaval intelligently, we might be able to prove Jefferson wrong...and wouldn't he be proud!

[capnhowdy]

Damn, P.M.

Cool..... now that you can but your own beer w/out a fake ID you can tell all the rest of us idiots how to run the country.

If I were you I'd move to one of those countries over ther somewhere that has already adapted the perfect government that you have seemed to have masterminded.

IMO, there's only one thing worse than a commy bastard.... & thats a commy bastard living in MY country and pissing and moaning 24/7. Sheesh.....

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by capnhowdy

Cool..... now that you can but your own beer w/out a fake ID you can tell all the rest of us idiots how to run the country.

But he's been "mad for fucking years"!