Jesus Camp - Page 2

Sundae · 09-12-2006, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limey

I grew up an atheist (not with Pie's splendid pedigree, however!) and I had a framework. What I really resent is how, in Britain, the Church of England is seen as being the moral arbiter on every questions, as if it were not possible to have a moral stance on a question without the Christian god telling you what to think. You, Sundae Girl, seem to be saying the same thing. Tell m this isn't true!

And to Pie too - I think perhaps it was the times I was brought up in. I grew up under Thatcher's Government, and in those days it seemed like the only publicly recognised credo was "Greed is good" (yes I know that's from Wall Street, but it was accepted long before it was written). Whereas I was brought up on the Gospel of St Matthew - If a stranger asks you for your shirt, give him your coat as well. It was at odds with the times and made me feel my framework came from religion.

I do accept my statement was sweeping, and I hope that if I did have children I'd be able to give them my own framework. But I stand by being indebted to Christianity - as much as my parents' humanism to soften it - for my views today.

Also, Pie - my parents didn't lie to me when they told me God loved me no matter what I did. I don't believe in their God - but they did at the time, and so did I. My parents gave me the same message of course (they loved me) but parents are human and can't help showing that sometimes they wish you had a Pause button.

I am glad to hear from people with an atheist upbringing though. It gives me hope.

Pangloss62 · 09-12-2006, 07:43 AM

Quote:

When i see things such as that documentary, I just want to know why the camp is doing it

Sadly, but not surprisingly, the motivation is self-centered. They are indoctrinating their children because of THEIR religious fanaticism, and using them to create the world THEY want. It's sick. It's child abuse. I will say no more about it.

But hello Pie (and Meiso). I've NEVER met a 3rd-generation atheist. I would also be proud. My father, also an atheist, never really told my Catholic mother that he was one. After married, however, the separation began. That rift forced me and my siblings to jump to one side or the other, and despite my mother's almost desperate attempts (that are still going on!), we all jumped, at least philisophically speaking, to my father's side. Not ONE of the six children are true believers, but we are all confirmed Catholics. I think I have to go to through the Vatican to be excommunicated; I don't like the idea of being "confirmed," even if it's only symbolic. Think of it like removing a big tattoo that your mom gave you.

Pie · 09-12-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

It was at odds with the times and made me feel my framework came from religion.

I do accept my statement was sweeping, and I hope that if I did have children I'd be able to give them my own framework. But I stand by being indebted to Christianity - as much as my parents' humanism to soften it - for my views today.

I understand. As adults, we have reached our points of view by incorporating many perspectives around us. I would be an utter fool to say that there was nothing of value in a religious outlook.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Also, Pie - my parents didn't lie to me when they told me God loved me no matter what I did. I don't believe in their God - but they did at the time, and so did I. My parents gave me the same message of course (they loved me) but parents are human and can't help showing that sometimes they wish you had a Pause button.

In your case, the "security blanket" worked. I do know people who are agnostic or athiest today, and are bitter at being force-fed as children. YMMV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

I am glad to hear from people with an atheist upbringing though. It gives me hope.

Thank you for your post, Sundae. I am guilty of my own knee-jerk reactions to the whole "moral framework" question. It goes back to a conversation I never had with my mother-in-law to be... And unfortunately, I never will resolve the issue. She passed away twelve years ago.

Pangloss62 · 09-19-2006, 12:30 PM

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Why is it irrational to segregate humans based upon race? I'm a white guy in the 1940s. I benefit from it. You're still fooling yourself. The philosophy that all men are equal is a belief. You can call it a principle if you like, but you believe in the principle.

As I pointed out before, the application of the Categorical Imperative is the basis for making "rational" decisions. The irrationality in segregation relates to the "overall" impact to human society, which can be shown to be negative, not just for those discriminated against, but for everyone. It is self evident that all men are NOT created equal; that is a rational statement. I don't "believe" in principles, I follow them and advocate them based upon their proven outcome. One can act upon a principle, while beliefs can only remain just that. You have it backwards again. I would reverse your statement and say "You can call it a belief if you like, but if you take actions based upon a belief, and it results in a positive outcome for society, it becomes a rational truth." The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

You said before that "Doing the rational thing is not always the right thing." Rationality does not involve morality (right & wrong), and although Kant did relate morality to actions, he asserted that only those maxims you'd be willing for everyone (not just yourself) to act were morally acceptable; it is always based on the net benefit to all.

There are to many examples of such actions to cite here. Some have argued that mercy killing is morally wrong, but others (including those being killed) see it as a very rational act. The one's who think otherwise are burdened with "beliefs."

Trilby · 09-11-2006, 04:20 PM