Where Is Sex? - Page 3

Rock Steady · 12-18-2006, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

... I resign to being treated like and calling myself a guy. But I resent it. I hate everything that being masculine, that being a guy, stands for.
....

I completely identify with that and I am 51 yo. I hate the male-vs-male competitions.

Hang in there. You can recreate what it means to be a guy. Last year, for Halloween I went into work dressed up as one of my girlfriends there. She loved it and to this day talks about it and shows pix of me. I go on girls-nights-out to shows and concerts. I wear black capri pants, silver anklets, and ...

Still, when I am with a group of my girlfriends they still treat me like the guy of the group. So, you can't completely escape it. But, it's still lots of fun for all of us.

On one date a couple of months ago, this gal took me out to a show with a limo to the city and the works. She was completely in control and it was a gender swapping evening. At the end I told her I didn't know whether she wanted me to be her boyfriend or girlfriend. And she said, "yeah, and I kept switching that on you all evening."

It's great when you finally hook up with people that get you. Hang in there, Ibram.

Clodfobble · 12-16-2006, 11:12 AM

Ibram, if I may make an assessment based on what I've seen of you here... keeping in mind this is just my interpretation, and in no way a definition of how you feel... you are not gay. You seem philosophically gay, meaning you have logically concluded that in being truly tolerant, you have to accept the possibility of a male relationship for yourself as being equal to the possibility of a female relationship. You also have a healthy amount of bad experiences with what is typically considered masculine, so you deliberately shy away from that label as well.

But, in the end, I think you are straight. Your hormones are at a particularly trying point right now, and I think you may ultimately realize that the recognition of another man as being attractive is more an intellectual feeling, and does not come to the same level of intensity you will have for your girlfriend or other women who are emotionally attractive to you. You are one of those guys that women will dream about: the sensitive, caring, listening, nonprejudicial type. But there's nothing wrong with being more attracted to one thing than another, even if it seems arbitrary. I like guys with glasses, for example. It's not fair, and I certainly wouldn't write off a potential guy just because he didn't wear glasses, but in the end, I'm attracted to what I'm attracted to, and there's nothing wrong with that. But like I said, I could be completely wrong, no one can know for sure but you. But I've known a lot of gay men, and a lot of "sensitive" straight men, and you definitely seem to me to be the latter.

Ibby · 12-16-2006, 11:23 AM

Whoa, whoa, whoa, even though I'm NOT gay, I've got a girlfriend, I'm definitely bi. I like the menfolk. A lot. Now, I wouldnt ever do anything with one, but that is because I have a girlfriend who I am completely, utterly devoted to and will love forever. I am not straight, that's for certain.

The semi-point of the last post, if there was one at all, is that I feel gay, I identify as gay, and I dont feel like a guy, so I'm really confused, and not entirely satisfied just labeling myself as a bisexual dude. I think a more accurate description would be... a different definition of bisexual, bisexual as... identifying as, being part of, liking, and just plain associating as both sexes. Genderblind, thats it. I see sex as a useless distinction. The only problem is that people try to fit their stereotypes, which sucks. But to me, gender isnt of any real... well, not importance, but... I dont know, some word that's similar to importance... but its... its not a distinction i need. However, as a teen, I feel a need to label everything, including myself.

Phil · 12-18-2006, 02:07 PM

i tailposted (a word I, thats me, invented!). to say that the Innuit Indians recognise 11 genders. i cant list them.

12-19-2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

i tailposted (a word I, thats me, invented!). to say that the Innuit Indians recognise 11 genders. i cant list them.

I believe it was, we, Mr.

Hmmmm... I wonder how many I got to do before I got married?

Ibby · 12-18-2006, 03:23 PM

Well then my all means, please do!

Ibby · 12-19-2006, 10:52 AM

I've just had an epiphany while meditating on Hedwig and the Angry Inch and listening to Shankar a little while ago...

I don't care.
I'll leave other people to worry about my gender. I don't need to. I know what I like, I know what I don't, and I don't need to know what I am. I will act as I feel, I will do what is right, I won't conform to any gender stereotypes for the sake of doing so. Just as I have been all along. I don't need to know or care what I identify as.

Sundae · 12-19-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

I don't care.
I'll leave other people to worry about my gender. I don't need to. I know what I like, I know what I don't, and I don't need to know what I am. I will act as I feel, I will do what is right, I won't conform to any gender stereotypes for the sake of doing so. Just as I have been all along. I don't need to know or care what I identify as.

This is the right attitude of course. It is far better than saying you hate everything male or being a man. Like other posters have said, that can only apply to a fixed definition of male, maleness etc. The closest men in my life are very different from one another - my father for example displays some typically feminine characteristics, but in other ways is "all man".

Just make sure you don't cut yourself off from anything you might enjoy by paying attention to other people's sterotypes. I know a guy who loves cooking, shopping, arthouse cinema, poetry, respects women and is a great shoulder to cry on. He also plays rugby, is sick in pub gardens when he gets drunk and rubs his bare arse against restaurant windows. He can't talk to all his friends about everything he enjoys, but at least he gets what he wants out of life.

And finally - bit of a long sig? Maybe it's just me, but it hurts my brain a bit when the sig is routinely longer than the post.

Ibby · 12-19-2006, 11:08 AM

ohhhh shit, i just realized he said CAN'T list, not can.

Oops. Whatever.

Ibby · 12-19-2006, 12:17 PM

the sig's only temporary, I just had to through that out there.

And its still true that I hate masculinity, I hate machismo, I hate almost everything stereotypically male. So?

Sundae · 12-19-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

mas·cu·line / Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mas-kyuh-lin] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. pertaining to or characteristic of a man or men: masculine attire.
2. having qualities traditionally ascribed to men, as strength and boldness.

So? I think you're doing a disservice to half the population of the world. There are many positive traits displayed by men (quick example above)- and if you didn't think so surely you'd be posting on a mainly female forum?

Obviously the way you feel about your/ their gender is totally your business, but I'd say the same to a woman posting that she hated everything about women and being female... seems a pity to have such disdain for so many people.

12-19-2006, 01:04 PM

This is really bothering me... I was not told before I got older and now I'll never get to do all eleven. I feel very cheated.

Ibby · 12-19-2006, 01:09 PM

I dont hate all men. I hate the posing, the preening, the strength, the oafishness, the rudeness, the unintelligence, the brute force and brawn that makes up machismo.

Like, take the weight room, for instance. We had to do weight room as a unit in Gym. The guys, instead of chatting or whatever, would spend ALL their time lifting absurd amounts, grunting and yelling and slapping eachothers chests and bellowing and just generally doing their best 'primate house' impressions.

THAT is what I hate about machismo.

Undertoad · 12-19-2006, 01:20 PM

I was against all that stuff when I was a lad, partly because I was raised by my mom and partly because I was a pencil-neck geek who would not fight anyone under any circumstances and came to hate physical violence or threat of it as force.

Now I understand it a little bit more and see the value of it. By thinking about it in terms of fighting, I couldn't stand it. But there is value in simple toughness, for one's self and for one's society.

Because life is tough and there is a lot of tough stuff to deal with. Somebody has to do the tough stuff.

Somebody has to buck up and run into the burning building. Somebody is going to have get out and push this car. Somebody is going to have to wrangle those hay bales into place in the barn. Somebody is going to have to walk miles back in the snow and try to find help. Somebody is going to have to handle those assholes trying to take back Afghanistan. Somebody is going to have to fix those truck scales. And whether or not we admit it, it's not only gender roles that have the men doing those things, 9 times out of 10.

Ibby · 12-19-2006, 01:42 PM

I understand that it does serve a societal purpose... So does death. That doesn't mean I like it.

12-16-2006, 11:23 AM	#3
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	Whoa, whoa, whoa, even though I'm NOT gay, I've got a girlfriend, I'm definitely bi. I like the menfolk. A lot. Now, I wouldnt ever do anything with one, but that is because I have a girlfriend who I am completely, utterly devoted to and will love forever. I am not straight, that's for certain. The semi-point of the last post, if there was one at all, is that I feel gay, I identify as gay, and I dont feel like a guy, so I'm really confused, and not entirely satisfied just labeling myself as a bisexual dude. I think a more accurate description would be... a different definition of bisexual, bisexual as... identifying as, being part of, liking, and just plain associating as both sexes. Genderblind, thats it. I see sex as a useless distinction. The only problem is that people try to fit their stereotypes, which sucks. But to me, gender isnt of any real... well, not importance, but... I dont know, some word that's similar to importance... but its... its not a distinction i need. However, as a teen, I feel a need to label everything, including myself. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh Last edited by Ibby; 12-16-2006 at 11:47 AM.

12-18-2006, 03:23 PM	#6
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	Well then my all means, please do! __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

12-19-2006, 10:52 AM	#7
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	I've just had an epiphany while meditating on Hedwig and the Angry Inch and listening to Shankar a little while ago... I don't care. I'll leave other people to worry about my gender. I don't need to. I know what I like, I know what I don't, and I don't need to know what I am. I will act as I feel, I will do what is right, I won't conform to any gender stereotypes for the sake of doing so. Just as I have been all along. I don't need to know or care what I identify as. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

12-19-2006, 11:08 AM	#9
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	ohhhh shit, i just realized he said CAN'T list, not can. Oops. Whatever. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

12-19-2006, 12:17 PM	#10
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	the sig's only temporary, I just had to through that out there. And its still true that I hate masculinity, I hate machismo, I hate almost everything stereotypically male. So? __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

12-16-2006, 11:12 AM	#2
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Ibram, if I may make an assessment based on what I've seen of you here... keeping in mind this is just my interpretation, and in no way a definition of how you feel... you are not gay. You seem philosophically gay, meaning you have logically concluded that in being truly tolerant, you have to accept the possibility of a male relationship for yourself as being equal to the possibility of a female relationship. You also have a healthy amount of bad experiences with what is typically considered masculine, so you deliberately shy away from that label as well. But, in the end, I think you are straight. Your hormones are at a particularly trying point right now, and I think you may ultimately realize that the recognition of another man as being attractive is more an intellectual feeling, and does not come to the same level of intensity you will have for your girlfriend or other women who are emotionally attractive to you. You are one of those guys that women will dream about: the sensitive, caring, listening, nonprejudicial type. But there's nothing wrong with being more attracted to one thing than another, even if it seems arbitrary. I like guys with glasses, for example. It's not fair, and I certainly wouldn't write off a potential guy just because he didn't wear glasses, but in the end, I'm attracted to what I'm attracted to, and there's nothing wrong with that. But like I said, I could be completely wrong, no one can know for sure but you. But I've known a lot of gay men, and a lot of "sensitive" straight men, and you definitely seem to me to be the latter.

12-18-2006, 02:07 PM	#4
Phil Hoodoo Guru Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 304	i tailposted (a word I, thats me, invented!). to say that the Innuit Indians recognise 11 genders. i cant list them.

12-19-2006, 01:04 PM	#12
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	This is really bothering me... I was not told before I got older and now I'll never get to do all eleven. I feel very cheated.

12-19-2006, 01:09 PM	#13
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	I dont hate all men. I hate the posing, the preening, the strength, the oafishness, the rudeness, the unintelligence, the brute force and brawn that makes up machismo. Like, take the weight room, for instance. We had to do weight room as a unit in Gym. The guys, instead of chatting or whatever, would spend ALL their time lifting absurd amounts, grunting and yelling and slapping eachothers chests and bellowing and just generally doing their best 'primate house' impressions. THAT is what I hate about machismo. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

12-19-2006, 01:20 PM	#14
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I was against all that stuff when I was a lad, partly because I was raised by my mom and partly because I was a pencil-neck geek who would not fight anyone under any circumstances and came to hate physical violence or threat of it as force. Now I understand it a little bit more and see the value of it. By thinking about it in terms of fighting, I couldn't stand it. But there is value in simple toughness, for one's self and for one's society. Because life is tough and there is a lot of tough stuff to deal with. Somebody has to do the tough stuff. Somebody has to buck up and run into the burning building. Somebody is going to have get out and push this car. Somebody is going to have to wrangle those hay bales into place in the barn. Somebody is going to have to walk miles back in the snow and try to find help. Somebody is going to have to handle those assholes trying to take back Afghanistan. Somebody is going to have to fix those truck scales. And whether or not we admit it, it's not only gender roles that have the men doing those things, 9 times out of 10.

12-19-2006, 01:42 PM	#15
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	I understand that it does serve a societal purpose... So does death. That doesn't mean I like it. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

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