Impeding changes to our Health Care system

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Bitman

It's physically impossible. If it costs less to extend your life, then you will live longer .. which increases the costs. It either costs an infinite amount of money to keep you alive, or someone must declare it's time for you to die. Who do you trust with that responsibility?

Someone whose profit potential is not increased by my death.

Insurance companies pay their shareholders out of the money they take in as premiums, but don't pay out in claims. And they are primarily beholden to their shareholders.

They complain that they couldn't compete with a program with no profit motive. That sounds like a plus to me.

[Bitman]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Someone whose profit potential is not increased by my death.

And who would that be? Your immediate family would love to keep you around, but the rest of us would rather use the space you take up for ourselves.

*You* are the only person who can make that decision correctly, and you can only make it if you directly control your own health.

The rest of your post was a rag on capitalism, which is not relevant here. I'm happy to grant insurance companies all the profit they can make, but only where health insurance is the right thing to do, and only where these companies can compete.

[classicman]

... hypothetically speaking of course.

And I am asking for opinions here because many times we all look at things from different viewpoints and come up with interesting ideas.
I am also asking the Gov't and have written my "representatives" already.
I am still waiting for a reply.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by classicman

... hypothetically speaking of course.

And I am asking for opinions here because many times we all look at things from different viewpoints and come up with interesting ideas.
I am also asking the Gov't and have written my "representatives" already.
I am still waiting for a reply.

They are still in the process of writing the legislation. That's probably why they haven't gotten back to you. There will be different proposals on the table, and by the time they finish, who knows what it will look like. I'm with Bill Maher on this. It's all well and good that Obama wants to be inclusive and reach across the aisle, but maybe he should be a little more like Bush in order to get certain things done. Like health care. Like energy.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Preventative medicine will help lower costs

... and therefore, the doctors income - no real incentive for them in that regard.

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Another thing that is a major problem is the cost of care in the last few months of life. We need to find a way to reduce those costs.

Just kill them sooner?

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I'm afraid this won't get done because Obama is cowtowing to the very same people who have held up health care reform for the past century.

BS

Originally Posted by sugarpop

republicans and the AMA and insurance companies... In my opinion they shouldn't get to have any input.

Hmmm, really?

Originally Posted by sugarpop

They can always deny your claim. Which they do a lot more often that most people realize.

What makes you think that won't happen even more if/with Gov't oversight?

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Personally, I think we should base our system on France's system. France has the best system in the world, while we are number 37.

yeh - France -

Originally Posted by sugarpop

by the time they finish, who knows what it will look like. I'm with Bill Maher on this. It's all well and good that Obama wants to be inclusive and reach across the aisle, but maybe he should be a little more like Bush in order to get certain things done. Like health care. Like energy.

Well if we don't know what it'll look like nor who it will cover nor IF it will cover everyone or just some or IF it will save money .... what exactly are we for?

I must say it was nice to hear in Obama say in his speech yesterday that if you are happy with your plan, or your doctor or your company ....you may keep them. Thats great, but at what cost? I just cannot see how this is not going to cost more than it already does and that means that I, as a productive employed citizen will be paying more. How much more is a major issue to me.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by classicman

... and therefore, the doctors income - no real incentive for them in that regard.

If we do it right, doctor's income could actually go up.

Just kill them sooner?

I didn't say that.

BS

He is asking everyone to the table. Since the AMA and insurance companies have been the biggest opponents of health care reform over the past century, what could they possibly have to offer this time? They don't want a public option, but without a public option, there is no true reform.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Politic...7838800&page=1

Hmmm, really?

Yes. REALLY. If republicans wanted to do it, they were just in power for years. They had their chance. All they are doing is trying to block true reform. Same with AMA and insurers. They have all had time to do it. Plenty of time. They haven't done it, because they aren't interested in true reform. They like the status quo.

What makes you think that won't happen even more if/with Gov't oversight?

I suppose it could, but the government isn't trying to make a profit, and that is the difference. insurance companies HAVE to make a HUGE profit in order to pay all the bloated executive salaries.

yeh - France -

France does have the best health care system in the world, according to the WHO.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Well if we don't know what it'll look like nor who it will cover nor IF it will cover everyone or just some or IF it will save money .... what exactly are we for?

I must say it was nice to hear in Obama say in his speech yesterday that if you are happy with your plan, or your doctor or your company ....you may keep them. Thats great, but at what cost? I just cannot see how this is not going to cost more than it already does and that means that I, as a productive employed citizen will be paying more. How much more is a major issue to me.

It should cover everyone. If it doesn't, Obama shouldn't sign it.

And you have to look at the cost if we DON'T reform health care. If we don't, it will take over, and the costs will continue escalating at an astronomical rate.

I really think it's a shame we aren't even debating a single payer system. I think a majority of people really want that.

One thing no one has brought up, is this is tied to wages. Wages have been stagnant for most people for decades, while rising for those at the top. Health care costs have risen dramatically more than wages. If wages had kept up, the problem wouldn't be as bad as it is. (It would still be a problem though.) No one wants to raise wages though. No one wants to do health care. So we have this problem, and we will continue to have it if nothing gets done, only it continue to get worse. It's the same with energy.

And gee, I'm sorry if you will have to pay more. I don't see how, unless you are above a certain income. There are plenty of productive citizens who are without insurance, through no fault of their own. It's just too damn expensive for some people. And some people had insurance, and still got screwed by their provider. So?

[classicman]

Well perhaps you'd actually like to answer the real questions instead of bringing car insurance into it.
I've asked three times now.

[Undertoad]

See if you have a local "urgent care" sort of place. It's like the ER without the battle. Saturday night people convinced me I might have strep, and my local place had me examined and cultured in 20 minutes for a $30 co-pay.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

See if you have a local "urgent care" sort of place. It's like the ER without the battle. Saturday night people convinced me I might have strep, and my local place had me examined and cultured in 20 minutes for a $30 co-pay.

Good idea... I think there's one right down the street. Although I have to say that Paoli's ER is lovely and battle free.

[classicman]

Forgive me, but I don't think you are sorry to hear that I'll have to pay more at all. It would seem that in your perfect world we'd all make about the same and have all the same benefits and the whole country would be full of "equality."

I really think it's a shame we aren't even debating a single payer system. I think a majority of people really want that.

Would that be a majority of whom? People that have nothing and don't care what they get as long as it s given to them or a majority of those who have worked hard and earned all that they have?

The last thing I want is another bloated inefficient Gov't program with someone else other than me and my doctors having any more say in the care, treatment and/or health decisions of me and my family.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by classicman

Forgive me, but I don't think you are sorry to hear that I'll have to pay more at all. It would seem that in your perfect world we'd all make about the same and have all the same benefits and the whole country would be full of "equality."

Would that be a majority of whom? People that have nothing and don't care what they get as long as it s given to them or a majority of those who have worked hard and earned all that they have?

The last thing I want is another bloated inefficient Gov't program with someone else other than me and my doctors having any more say in the care, treatment and/or health decisions of me and my family.

What makes you think anyone other than your doctor would make those decisions? With insurance companies, pencil pushers make decisions about your health. They deny coverage. With Medicare they don't.

And sorry, but there are plenty of wealthy people who would like a single payer system as well. Or who don't mind paying more so that everyone is covered.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

With insurance companies, pencil pushers make decisions about your health. They deny coverage. With Medicare they don't.

You are completely mis-informed. Medicare denies coverage on a daily basis. Like most insurance programs they require pre-approval and they are among the worst.

And sorry, but there are plenty of wealthy people who would like a single payer system as well. Or who don't mind paying more so that everyone is covered.

Really? Who are those? Hollywood talking heads?

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You are completely mis-informed. Medicare denies coverage on a daily basis. Like most insurance programs they require pre-approval and they are among the worst.

I don't think Medicare is going to let someone die of cancer when there is treatment available. You certainly don't hear stories about people going into bankruptcy or losing their home and life savings because Medicare wouldn't treat them. You DO hear those stories about private insurance.

Really? Who are those? Hollywood talking heads?

I hardly think Donnie Deutsch or Warren Buffet are Hollywood talking heads, and I've heard both of them say that. In fact, Donnie Deutsche said the other day on Morning Joe the best way to pay for health care would be to get the top 100,000 people to pay an additional $100,000 in taxes.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I don't think Medicare is going to let someone die of cancer when there is treatment available. You certainly don't hear stories about people going into bankruptcy or losing their home and life savings because Medicare wouldn't treat them. You DO hear those stories about private insurance.



I hardly think Donnie Deutsch or Warren Buffet are Hollywood talking heads, and I've heard both of them say that. In fact, Donnie Deutsche said the other day on Morning Joe the best way to pay for health care would be to get the top 100,000 people to pay an additional $100,000 in taxes.

I just want the bottom 60% to pay thier fair share.

[Bitman]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Donnie Deutsche said the other day on Morning Joe the best way to pay for health care would be to get the top 100,000 people to pay an additional $100,000 in taxes.

I'll take that bet: $100,000*100,000 = $10 billion. There are a quarter billion people in the states, so that gives us .. $40 per person per year. Problem solved.

France does have the best health care system in the world, according to the WHO.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

I recommend you read that link, it's quite informative. Especially this gem:

Originally Posted by that article

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task.

So the WHO posted a questionable report, then just gave up altogether. But wait, why does a page on "photius.com" have a "geography.org" header? Maybe we should visit the actual press release. Sure enough, near the top, they report that the US is number 37. But if you keep reading ...

Originally Posted by The Who

Responsiveness: The nations with the most responsive health systems are the United States, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Denmark, Germany, Japan, Canada, Norway, Netherlands and Sweden.

US is first, France is missing.

Originally Posted by The Who

Fairness of financial contribution: ... Colombia was the top-rated country in this category, followed by Luxembourg, Belgium, Djibouti, Denmark, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Japan and Finland.

France and US are both missing.

Let's see if Google can tell us what's so great about France. How about this one?

The working population has twenty percent of their gross salary deducted at source to fund the social security system.

How much health care could you buy for 20% of your income? If you put that in a 401K, you think it might cover your retirement? Boy, I bet those doctors are well paid.

However, 56 percent of physicians work in private practices because of the difficult working conditions in hospitals.

Yikes. Well, how about this one:

The French system is also not inexpensive. At $3,500 per capita it is one of the most costly in Europe, yet that is still far less than the $6,100 per person in the United States.

That's not so bad. Unless it's on top of the 20% social security tax. Just one more:

Hospital facilities, although greatly expanded since World War II, are still considered inadequate. Doctors tend to be concentrated in the cities and are in short supply in some rural areas. The death rate, life expectancy, and infant mortality rate are similar to those of other industrialized nations.

While the US system may be troubled, but France is certainly not the utopia you make it out to be.