Lebanon voted against their fascists; Britain elected a few - Page 3

sugarpop · 06-17-2009, 08:43 PM

And if it is used as a political tool (like killing abortion doctors) it becomes a form of domestic terrorism.

DanaC · 06-17-2009, 09:27 PM

*blinks* shit mark a calendar, me and Dave agreed!

classicman · 06-17-2009, 09:36 PM

C'mon Dani - we agree a lot more than you'd like to admit.

Bullitt · 06-17-2009, 09:44 PM

I guess I just don't "get it". To me, any crime is a crime against society as a whole because it is a destabilizing force that sends the message of "I'm going to do what I want, and how it harms anyone else is irrelevant to me". So in my mind, a person who kills because of religion like the abortion doctor murderer, and a person who kills because of revenge for say cheating on a lover, are equally wrong because the end result is the same: someone murdered and society as a whole is worse off for it. A person's actions that prove them to be unwilling to abide by the rules of "civilized society", murder in this case, can stem from a variety of causes like racism, greed, etc., but what it boils down to is that this person is a destabilizing/destructive force and needs to be removed from society. Whether the cause is racism, religion, money, or revenge it doesn't matter in my mind. The fact that a person was willing to kill over whatever the cause is what's truly sick to me and what should carry the most weight when it comes time to decide what to do with them.

classicman · 06-17-2009, 09:47 PM

Thats all true Bullitt and I agree. But to clqssify the crime - now thats what this is about. That way we can do studies and take surveys and compile data and create statistics and legislate and create laws and jobs and and and...

DanaC · 06-17-2009, 09:58 PM

and eat a bowl of dicks?

classicman · 06-17-2009, 10:02 PM

and spend, spend, spend babyyyy

sugarpop · 06-18-2009, 12:49 PM

So then attack on the US was just mass murder. Daniel Perle's murder was just another murder. Why are we so upset ablout it then?

Bullitt · 06-18-2009, 01:39 PM

Because there's nothing "just" about it. Murder is a terribly destructive force in communities and should be dealt with swiftly and harshly in all circumstances. Lets say you line up two men against a wall with two shooters about to kill them. One shooter is a religious nutjob and the other a jilted lover. They both proceed to murder their victims. Should one be punished more harshly than the other? I argue no, they both committed the same heinous act and should both be held to the same standard of punishment. There is no such thing as "just another murder".

DanaC · 06-18-2009, 01:44 PM

'just' mass murder? No. That attack was a crime against the entire American people. If, as they believe, they are at war, thne they are at the very least guilty of a warcrime.

I don't think labelling a murder a 'hate crime' should mean it is punished more harshly. Giving it that label merely recognises the subtle difference between a 'personal' crime and a crime against society. One crime is contained within itself. The other has the potential for wider implications (possibly leading to crimes against humanity such as happened in nazi Germany or Rwanda)

piercehawkeye45 · 06-19-2009, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt

Because there's nothing "just" about it. Murder is a terribly destructive force in communities and should be dealt with swiftly and harshly in all circumstances. Lets say you line up two men against a wall with two shooters about to kill them. One shooter is a religious nutjob and the other a jilted lover. They both proceed to murder their victims. Should one be punished more harshly than the other? I argue no, they both committed the same heinous act and should both be held to the same standard of punishment. There is no such thing as "just another murder".

There is a difference even though the outcome and intent are the same. When you kill someone for cheating, they performed a personal act against you. If I did not want to be killed by this person, I would just not have to cheat on them. When you kill someone because of their identity, they did nothing against you. If I did not want to be killed by this person, I would have to change or hide my entire identity. That is the biggest factor in my opinion.

Classicman, Obama obviously wasn't endosed by the KKK but some members did vote for him. I was bored last year and looked at Stormfront and saw a HUGE controversy of some members supporting Obama. Their reasons were legitimate as well.

Obama being elected, in some respects, help the KKK in the same way that Bush's invasion of Iraq helped Al Qaeda. Since Obama got elected, KKK membership has shot up.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574...14-401,00.html

sugarpop · 06-19-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

...Obama being elected, in some respects, help the KKK in the same way that Bush's invasion of Iraq helped Al Qaeda. Since Obama got elected, KKK membership has shot up.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574...14-401,00.html

Well that is just sickening.

piercehawkeye45 · 06-19-2009, 03:21 PM

Its not surprising. It doesn't really matter though, the KKK has very little influence or power. Their reign is well over.

Bullitt · 06-19-2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

There is a difference even though the outcome and intent are the same. When you kill someone for cheating, they performed a personal act against you. If I did not want to be killed by this person, I would just not have to cheat on them. When you kill someone because of their identity, they did nothing against you. If I did not want to be killed by this person, I would have to change or hide my entire identity. That is the biggest factor in my opinion.

You make a good point/distinction there in regards to whether they performed a personal act against you or not, maybe I should have used a different example instead like killing someone for their car. To me what matters most is that the person is willing to kill period, whether it be for money or one less gay man in the world. The fact that they think they're above society and can do what they like, i.e. straight up murder someone, is more damaging in my mind than the racial or religious motivations behind the killing. Though I can see how racial or religious hatred can be a catalyst for tensions to run high enough that killings take place, and in that regard solving those differences is a high priority.

Mad Professor · 06-20-2009, 01:31 AM

I saw a party election broadcast by the BNP leader Nick Griffin on the telly before the election, and it made me sick to see the guy actually being given airtime on national tv.

Someone in the Cabinet, can't remember who now, predicted a while ago that with the onset of recession there was a danger that fascism would rise in support, and it seems he was right.

The only crumb of comfort is that as far as I'm aware the European Parliament doesn't have much power, most of the decision making comes from the EU Commission in Brussels and ministers from member state governments.

06-17-2009, 09:36 PM	#33
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	C'mon Dani - we agree a lot more than you'd like to admit. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-17-2009, 09:44 PM	#34
Bullitt This is a fully functional babe lair Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,324	I guess I just don't "get it". To me, any crime is a crime against society as a whole because it is a destabilizing force that sends the message of "I'm going to do what I want, and how it harms anyone else is irrelevant to me". So in my mind, a person who kills because of religion like the abortion doctor murderer, and a person who kills because of revenge for say cheating on a lover, are equally wrong because the end result is the same: someone murdered and society as a whole is worse off for it. A person's actions that prove them to be unwilling to abide by the rules of "civilized society", murder in this case, can stem from a variety of causes like racism, greed, etc., but what it boils down to is that this person is a destabilizing/destructive force and needs to be removed from society. Whether the cause is racism, religion, money, or revenge it doesn't matter in my mind. The fact that a person was willing to kill over whatever the cause is what's truly sick to me and what should carry the most weight when it comes time to decide what to do with them. __________________ Kiss my white Irish ass.

06-17-2009, 09:47 PM	#35
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Thats all true Bullitt and I agree. But to clqssify the crime - now thats what this is about. That way we can do studies and take surveys and compile data and create statistics and legislate and create laws and jobs and and and... __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-17-2009, 10:02 PM	#37
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	and spend, spend, spend babyyyy __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-18-2009, 01:39 PM	#39
Bullitt This is a fully functional babe lair Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,324	Because there's nothing "just" about it. Murder is a terribly destructive force in communities and should be dealt with swiftly and harshly in all circumstances. Lets say you line up two men against a wall with two shooters about to kill them. One shooter is a religious nutjob and the other a jilted lover. They both proceed to murder their victims. Should one be punished more harshly than the other? I argue no, they both committed the same heinous act and should both be held to the same standard of punishment. There is no such thing as "just another murder". __________________ Kiss my white Irish ass.

06-17-2009, 08:43 PM	#31
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	And if it is used as a political tool (like killing abortion doctors) it becomes a form of domestic terrorism.

06-18-2009, 12:49 PM	#38
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	So then attack on the US was just mass murder. Daniel Perle's murder was just another murder. Why are we so upset ablout it then?

06-19-2009, 03:21 PM	#43
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Its not surprising. It doesn't really matter though, the KKK has very little influence or power. Their reign is well over. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

06-20-2009, 01:31 AM	#45
Mad Professor Belt Conveyor Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Blighty Posts: 65	I saw a party election broadcast by the BNP leader Nick Griffin on the telly before the election, and it made me sick to see the guy actually being given airtime on national tv. Someone in the Cabinet, can't remember who now, predicted a while ago that with the onset of recession there was a danger that fascism would rise in support, and it seems he was right. The only crumb of comfort is that as far as I'm aware the European Parliament doesn't have much power, most of the decision making comes from the EU Commission in Brussels and ministers from member state governments. __________________ Nothin' seems that weird anymore Lo Fidelity Allstars

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