What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona?

Originally Posted by jinx

Oh yay!!! It's The Fucking Asshole Show!!!

I haven't seen this in DAYS!

It should be pay-per-view.

But I'm done.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

...You espouse spending additional money to stop illegal immigration, yet you condemn spending money. You can't have it both ways. Shel and Shaw understood...

Originally Posted by classicman

...lol Shel and shaw? Are you serious?
...

Originally Posted by classicman

...
I merely referred to the fact that you and he agreed with his stance. ...

Now you can't tell the difference between understood and agreed.

[classicman]

semantics

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

There is very strong evidence that illegal immigrants contribute significantly to the Social Security "earnings suspense" fund....the funds from received from "bad" social security numbers.

The fund now totals more than $50 billion....the SS Administrator estimates that $5-8 billion/year is from illegal immigrants with false SS card.

You can quibble with the number...$5 billion or $8 billion...but $billions/year is a fact.

Great, post your source....

FBI/AZ crime stats are facts....increasing budget appropriations are facts....higher deportation numbers are facts.

Just not facts you guys want to hear.

Yep, all related to an increase in illegals breaking the law by the very fact they are here. Increased budget appropriations for the border war occurred years before your Socialist came to office...

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

But I'm done.

Why yes you are! and you failed again! Well done Demoncratic Shrill!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Great, post your source.....

Always happy to provide a source, despite the fact that you rarely if ever respond in kind, when requested. Instead, you demand that others asking you for a source must "prove you wrong"

Just saying

How about sworn testimony of the Deputy Commissioner of Social Security:

In TY 2003, $7.2 billion in payroll taxes were credited to the Trust Funds based on wage items placed in the suspense file. This represented approximately 1.3 percent of total payroll taxes credited to the Trust Funds....

...As of October, 2005, approximately 8.8 million W-2s (3.7 percent of the total) representing $57.8 billion in wages remained in the suspense file for TY 2003...

...SSA’s Inspector General will testify later that this growth is due to “unauthorized work by non-citizens”

http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/testimony_021606.html

The suspense file has continued to grow since this testimony four ago....at a higher rate than the $7 billion/year

[TheMercenary]

Testimony is not a factual statistic, sorry fail again Demoncratic Shrill....

Originally Posted by classicman

I think the issue is more than just crime statistics. The costs in other areas is also choking the system. Prisons, healthcare, education...



There is also a piece on it here from
CBS News

Testimony?

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Testimony is not a factual statistic, sorry fail again Demoncratic Shrill....

To further clarify, it is my understanding that governnment data is not accceptable to either of you as well, since you view such data as "propoganda, biased or unreliable"....unless, of course, that government data supports your position, in which case it is acceptable.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by lookout123

One of the things that has been talked about quite a bit down here is that the crime rate in the metro areas has gone down significantly at the same time as more and more of my fellow arizonans are becoming fulltime firearm carriers. The debate has been whether that is cause/effect or just coincidental. . .

It's getting harder and harder for anyone to believe it is "just coincidental." It has been the uniform experience of each and every state that has liberalized concealed carry of weapons (CCW for short).

(And the one reason Spexxvet can survive while hysterically not packing heat is because others can do it for him, and in his place.)

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

There is very strong evidence that illegal immigrants contribute significantly to the Social Security "earnings suspense" fund....the funds from received from "bad" social security numbers.

The fund now totals more than $50 billion....the SS Administrator estimates that $5-8 billion/year is from illegal immigrants with false SS card.
You can quibble with the number...$5 billion or $8 billion...but $billions/year is a fact.

Originally Posted by classicman

We're still waiting for you to add up the costs of the criminal immigrants.
C'mon Mr. statistic - where are your numbers?

What are the costs to AZ in terms of infrastructure, education, health care and so on?
After you get that we can compare the two.

Now you are just being an "argumentative asshole" if I could use your words.

Of course, there is a cost to AZ directly related to illegal immigrants. I have never suggested otherwise. I did say, IMO, the cost reported from some sources is over-inflated and that it is factually incorrect to say that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes.

I have provided data that crime is down statewide and in border cities/counties.

I have provided data that federal expenditures on border security have increased significantly in the last 3-5 years.

And I have provided data that deportations have risen proportionately at the same time.

In fact, according to DHS/Customs data, the number of illegal immigrants currently in the country is at its lowest point in the last 10 years...having peaked in 2007.

IMO, when the governor of AZ describes the current illegal immigration problem in AZ as responsible for "murder, terror and mayhem" and the federal government is "not responding"....I would suggest she is politicizing the problem as much as anyone.

And that means politicizing the issue as much or more than those law enforcement officials in AZ and elsewhere who have expressed concern over the law and who you say are ALL acting for political or financial reasons.

Another fact check

added:
I am not for open borders, as you or others have suggested. I am not for illegal immigrants having more rights than citizens, as you or others have suggested.

IMO, the only way to address the issue is to have comprehensive reform that provides more effective border security (not wasting money on a symbolic fence) AND a pathway to citizenship for most of the 12 million illegal immigrants in the country....NOT amnesty as it is mischaracterized for political purposes....but a process where they register, go to the back of the line, have a background check, pay taxes and fines, learn english, etc.

[classicman]

Of course, there is a cost to AZ directly related to illegal immigrants.

First time you have made that admission. Thanks.

it is factually incorrect to say that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes.

I never said they didn't.

I have provided data that federal expenditures on border security have increased significantly in the last 3-5 years.

You actually stated that Obama had done more than Bush. You are now altering your story to say 3-5 years.
No disagreement on this timeframe.

...the number of illegal immigrants currently in the country is at its lowest point in the last 10 years...having peaked in 2007.

Which is directly related to the economic downturn.

added:
I am not for open borders, as you or others have suggested.
I am not for illegal immigrants having more rights than citizens, as you or others have suggested.

Add this - Take my posts and direct your response to me -
Take other people's posts and direct your responses to them.

the only way to address the issue is to have comprehensive reform that provides more effective border security (not wasting money on a symbolic fence) AND a pathway to citizenship for most of the 12 million illegal immigrants in the country....NOT amnesty as it is mischaracterized for political purposes....but a process where they register, go to the back of the line, have a background check, pay taxes and fines, learn english, etc.

Aside from your fence point (I'd prefer a well constructed wall with checkpoints and medical facilities on the Mexican side) I mostly agree - its in the details of how to accomplish this. Additionally, the problem with anything that is seen as "Amnesty" or preferential treatment for the criminals already here is that creates a rush on the borders. Well that and the still lingering question of Who are these 12 million and which ones do we want to allow to stay?
I see no other way to control immigration without actually controlling it. Without a wall/fence or some other means, there is no way.

It would be a pleasant surprise if you could acknowledge any of the data I provided rather than twist what I post or nitpick it or ignore data that you dont like. Somehow, you are never wrong....or never willing to acknowledge the shortcomings in your own posts.

And for the record, I provide cites when requested...certainly more than you or most others.

Finally, it would pleasant surprise if you could even consider the fact that the supporters of the law have politicized the issue as much as anyone. Somehow, from your perspective, its all on one side...ALL those who have issues with the law have political or financial interests.

Then, I might believe you are interested in an honest discussion.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

It would be a pleasant surprise if you could acknowledge any of the data I provided...

????? I acknowledge that you provided data.

...rather than twist what I post or nitpick it or ignore data that you dont like.

?????

Somehow, you are never wrong....or never willing to acknowledge the shortcomings in your own posts.

????? Really? I wish.

And for the record, I provide cites when requested...certainly more than you or most others.

Again lumping people together - I post cites as often, if not more than anyone. Is there somewhere I didn't post a cite that you need?
WTF are you talking about?

Finally, it would pleasant surprise if you could even consider the fact that EVERYONE has politicized the issue. Then, I might believe you are interested in an honest discussion.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

ETA - way to take another post out of context again. I let it go because you made some cogent rational points, but immediately after I reply you attack and get all snarky again. Probably is better we do not communicate anymore.

Somethings never change......you are always the victim.

You never twist others post...but yours are take out of context.

Cry me a river, dude, and put me on ignore.

But when I see bullshit and narrow minded generalizations, I will respond.